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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: Smart Missile House Rules |
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So, I asked a question about the official rules for Smart Missiles, and it turned almost immediately into a discussion of house rules. To preserve the division between the two, I thought I'd open up a separate topic (even though I'm pretty sure its been done before).
A few notes:
-I'm thinking of basing SW guided weapons technology generally on guided missile technology from the Cold War era, with short-range Concussion Missiles behaving like AIM-9 Sidewinders (close range fire-and-forget) and Proton Torpedoes behaving more like AIM-7 Sparrows (longer range, but requiring a constant sensor lock-on from the launching fighter).
-Sensor Lock-On would be based on the launching fighter's Focus dice. Starfighters with Astromechs could coordinate, with the astromech controlling the sensor lock-on and the pilot firing the missile.
-Missiles would get one attack per round, and evading a missile would use a chart like so:Missile misses by = Result
<10 = Missile is still homing, and may attack as normal the following round
10-20 = Missile has lost lock, but may roll to reacquire in the next round. If lock is reestablished, the missile may attack as normal in the following round. If the lock is lost, the missile's safety settings engage and it self destructs.
21+ = Missile has lost lock and can not re-engage. Safety settings engage and the missile self destructs.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Issues i see needing to be addressed would be
A) How long do missiles/torps fly for? How fast.
B) What is the 're-lock on roll' is it based on just the missile's own FC or is the gunner still able to add their gunnery to the roll?
C) Can jamming disable it?
D) Can they be shot down? If so how many tries/shots and at what difficulty?
E) What's a missile's Hull/body to resist damage?
F) how much more costly would smart missiles be over the listed book price for dumb ones? What about their availability code? What does that shift up to?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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To answer my own questions raised...
| garhkal wrote: | Issues i see needing to be addressed would be
A) How long do missiles/torps fly for? How fast. |
I see missiles being faster/longer duration of flight time than torps, so 4-6 rounds of flight time with 9-12 speed for torps (tops) and 7-10 rounds with a 12-15 speed for missiles.
| garhkal wrote: | | B) What is the 're-lock on roll' is it based on just the missile's own FC or is the gunner still able to add their gunnery to the roll? |
Initially i would say the gunner should get a chance to add his roll into the missile's FC but after a few rounds of flight, it would be JUST the missile. BUT what would their FC Be? 4d was mentioned by you in the other thread, but that makes them below most pilot+maneuverability by a fair margin. Take a BOOK listed tie pilot. 4d+1 with 2d maneuverability. A smart missile imo therefore should be at least 6d. With a potential to be higher based on cost.
| garhkal wrote: | | C) Can jamming disable it? |
Normal sensor jamming, no. A-wings are listed as having special combat jammers, so those i can see messing with a missile/torps re-lock chance. Say the D rating the jammer has is applied as a flat penalty to the chance to re-lock on or to break the lock as is.
| garhkal wrote: | | D) Can they be shot down? If so how many tries/shots and at what difficulty? |
Your other thread said a PB shot should get no chance, while short range should get one increasing 1 per RC to 3 max at long. While i agree a PB shot should stand no chance to get shot down, i disagree you should get 3 tries at long range.. I would also place the difficult to hit, at least +5 over what the initial Gunnery+FC Roll to target your ship was.
| garhkal wrote: | | E) What's a missile's Hull/body to resist damage? |
2d max. I could possibly even see your suggestion in the other thread of it only being 1d. Heck one of my cap ships as point defense targeting units with 3d damage max, so those should be capable of downing an incoming missile.
| garhkal wrote: | | F) how much more costly would smart missiles be over the listed book price for dumb ones? What about their availability code? What does that shift up to? |
Availability would shift to R at a minimum (Military only) or potentially even an X. Cost would be based on the type (faster or higher FC) with at least 4x min. So the slowest lowest FC missile would be 3200 credits PER (based on the 800 per shot book price for the dumb ones. Going all the way to 20x for the top of the line fast/smart missiles..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Issues i see needing to be addressed would be
A) How long do missiles/torps fly for? How fast. |
I'm actually considering tossing the missile speed, with the initial range used to put the missile "in the box" with the target. Once that happens, the roll reverts to the chart I described, where the success of the target's dodge vs. the missile determines whether the missile still has a lock or not. The duration for smart missiles (10 rounds) seems fine as a starting point, but I'm open to suggestions.
| Quote: | | B) What is the 're-lock on roll' is it based on just the missile's own FC or is the gunner still able to add their gunnery to the roll? |
I would think a smart missile would need two stats: one for Fire Control and one for Maneuverability. Fire Control would be used to establish the lock-on, while Maneuverability would be used to actually execute attacks. The initial lock-on would be derived from the launching craft's Sensor Focus dice, then subsequent Lock-On rolls would be from the missile's warhead, unless the missile in question is like the Sparrow and requires a constant lock-on signal from the launching craft.
| Quote: | | C) Can jamming disable it? |
I agree with what your proposition, that only specialized fire control jammers can disrupt it. If nothing else, many missiles have a home-on-jam option that actually turns jamming into a liability rather than an asset.
| Quote: | | D) Can they be shot down? If so how many tries/shots and at what difficulty? |
I would say yes. The X-Wing and TIE Fighter games allowed it, so why not? Starfighters do face some challenges, however, in that they would need to be able to bring a weapon to bear, so those few fighters with rear firing weaponry would be at an advantage. Apart from that, a pilot would have to decide whether or not to attempt to dodge or outrun the missile as opposed to reefing his ship into a bootleg turn and taking a shot at the missile as it approaches.
| Quote: | | E) What's a missile's Hull/body to resist damage? |
1D at whatever the weapon's damage scale is works for me. It gives it a slim chance of surviving damage, but that's about it.
| Quote: | | F) how much more costly would smart missiles be over the listed book price for dumb ones? What about their availability code? What does that shift up to? |
Not quite up to that point yet. Per Pirates & Privateers, smart missiles cost 3x more than dumb missiles, and savant missiles (that pretend to be dumb the first round, then go active) cost 6x more than dumb. No availability codes are included with the price. For now, though, I'd like to concentrate on the mechanics of the missiles.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I see missiles being faster/longer duration of flight time than torps, so 4-6 rounds of flight time with 9-12 speed for torps (tops) and 7-10 rounds with a 12-15 speed for missiles. |
So, if this is in line with my concept of missiles being short ranged dogfighting weapons and torpedoes being longer ranged intercept weapons, wouldn't it make more sense for the numbers to be reversed? The longer ranged weapons would need the endurance to hit further out.
| garhkal wrote: | | 4d was mentioned by you in the other thread, but that makes them below most pilot+maneuverability by a fair margin. Take a BOOK listed tie pilot. 4d+1 with 2d maneuverability. A smart missile imo therefore should be at least 6d. With a potential to be higher based on cost. |
Agreed. The dice numbers should be high enough that rookiee pilots fear missiles and torpedoes while veterans are just wary of them
| garhkal wrote: | | Your other thread said a PB shot should get no chance, while short range should get one increasing 1 per RC to 3 max at long. While i agree a PB shot should stand no chance to get shot down, i disagree you should get 3 tries at long range.. I would also place the difficult to hit, at least +5 over what the initial Gunnery+FC Roll to target your ship was. |
Fair enough. It was just a spitball to get people talking. I'm not sure gunnery plus fire control is the best measure of how difficult a missile will be to shoot down. If anything, getting the missile shot straighter at the target will reduce lateral movement and make it even easier to hit. I would say a flat Very Difficult, ala the artillery shell example, or Heroic if shooting at a missile from the side (as would be the case if you were shooting at a missile fired at someone else).
| garhkal wrote: | | Availability would shift to R at a minimum (Military only) or potentially even an X. Cost would be based on the type (faster or higher FC) with at least 4x min. So the slowest lowest FC missile would be 3200 credits PER (based on the 800 per shot book price for the dumb ones. Going all the way to 20x for the top of the line fast/smart missiles.. |
A good place to start, at least. Price multipliers could be increased based on the efficacy of the fire control and maneuvering systems.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, if this is in line with my concept of missiles being short ranged dogfighting weapons and torpedoes being longer ranged intercept weapons, wouldn't it make more sense for the numbers to be reversed? The longer ranged weapons would need the endurance to hit further out. |
Perhaps your initial thought on missiles being the shorter vice torps is what is reversed. Most missiles of a lighter punch generally have a further range than the heavier hitters... in the case of sparrows to sidewinders the sparrow being lighter weight is why it was less range than the sidewinder.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Then why does the Sidwinder have the rep of being a dogfighting missile while the Sparrow is a long-range BVR interceptor? If range is a function of speed and duration (ie units per round x number of rounds), why should a shorter ranged missile have a longer duration and higher speed? I'm willing to accept your reasoning on this, but then some other method needs to be determined as to why a longer ranged weapon would have shorter duration.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Lane Arroway
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Why not make the missile like a mini droid ship? Give it a droid brain with a piloting skill. (I was going to add gunnery, but then I remebered that the missile is not trying to shoot the ship, it's trying to collide with it.) Then give the missile a normal space and manueverability. I go with a 1D hull. Then all it needs is a preset time limit, like 10 rds, and your set.
I went a step futher than this when I came up with a self-guided warhead. The missile I used had a "smart" droid brain, shields and defensive weapons. Some versions could travel through hyperspace to reach distant targets.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Then why does the Sidwinder have the rep of being a dogfighting missile while the Sparrow is a long-range BVR interceptor? If range is a function of speed and duration (ie units per round x number of rounds), why should a shorter ranged missile have a longer duration and higher speed? I'm willing to accept your reasoning on this, but then some other method needs to be determined as to why a longer ranged weapon would have shorter duration. |
Cause it trades range for speed.
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lurker
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
| garhkal wrote: |
C) Can jamming disable it? |
I agree with what your proposition, that only specialized fire control jammers can disrupt it. If nothing else, many missiles have a home-on-jam option that actually turns jamming into a liability rather than an asset.
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What about chaff & flares (well the advanced SW version of it)?
.... Thinking about it, maybe best if they add a bonus to the targets dodge roll. Say something like cover for a PC being shot at with a blaster ...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Lane Arroway wrote: | | Why not make the missile like a mini droid ship? Give it a droid brain with a piloting skill. (I was going to add gunnery, but then I remebered that the missile is not trying to shoot the ship, it's trying to collide with it.) Then give the missile a normal space and manueverability. I go with a 1D hull. Then all it needs is a preset time limit, like 10 rds, and your set. |
That's pretty much what the RAW is, minus the piloting skill. IMO, making the missile a separate entity adds a level of complexity when the goal for a combat rule is to keep the combat fast-paced. I'd much rather consider the ability to make multiple attempts at attacking the target part of the weapon effect than having to number crunch the geometry of missed shots, turns, etc.
| Quote: | | I went a step futher than this when I came up with a self-guided warhead. The missile I used had a "smart" droid brain, shields and defensive weapons. Some versions could travel through hyperspace to reach distant targets. |
I know there were some EU ideas similar to this, like the TIE Bomb Drone and the Galaxy Gun. I'd probably reserve that idea for something larger, like long-range anti-capital ship attacks and the like...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Cause it trades range for speed. |
So wouldn't that mean the Sidewinder would have higher speed but a lower duration?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | What about chaff & flares (well the advanced SW version of it)? |
You mean like Obi-Wan's spare parts storage in AOTC? Chaff and flares are a little too low tech for my tastes, but maybe a generalized decoy pod that serves a similar purpose.
| Quote: | | .... Thinking about it, maybe best if they add a bonus to the targets dodge roll. Say something like cover for a PC being shot at with a blaster ... |
That would work with my idea, too. A decoy pod would add 1D to the defender's roll to Dodge, with multiple pods having a cumulative effect. Of course, a pilot who uses them all up to quickly could wind up in trouble...
There is also the possibility of tail turrets, with blaster cannon used to engage missiles in the ship's aft arc. Otherwise, shootdown attempts would require a bootleg turn and a lot of luck.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: |
What about chaff & flares (well the advanced SW version of it)?
.... Thinking about it, maybe best if they add a bonus to the targets dodge roll. Say something like cover for a PC being shot at with a blaster ... |
Jamming exists in the A-wing by the R&E book. I have yet (even in fan made stuff) seen any rules for Flares or chaff. So do we even know if they exist?
| Quote: | | So wouldn't that mean the Sidewinder would have higher speed but a lower duration? |
True. It should. So perhaps the concussion missile (being the sidewinder here) should have a 15+ speed for 5 or so rounds, while the torps (being the sparrows) have 10 or so for 8-10 rounds..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Jamming exists in the A-wing by the R&E book. I have yet (even in fan made stuff) seen any rules for Flares or chaff. So do we even know if they exist? |
I have seen decoy pods in other sci-fi genres, but none in the SWU. Granted, the ambiguity of how warhead launchers work in the SWU has stymied development, but it would seem a logical evolution. Obi-wan obviously didn't have access to them in AOTC, even though they would've come in very handy, so he had to make do by jettisoning his spare parts as chaff. If even the Jedi didn't have them during that time, during an era when smart missiles did exist, I would say that they aren't generally available.
Not that they couldn't be invented...
| Quote: | | So perhaps the concussion missile (being the sidewinder here) should have a 15+ speed for 5 or so rounds, while the torps (being the sparrows) have 10 or so for 8-10 rounds.. |
If I were to follow through with my plan to drop missile speed codes entirely, I would translate it into a higher Maneuverability, making it more potent as a dogfighting weapon.
To distinguish between the two, I would give the concussion missile an initial firing range (out to a maximum of 20 or so), and just fire it as a normal weapon, based on the idea that (like the Sidewinder) it tracks at short range using its own seeker. Once its fired, the pilot can basically forget about it.
The proton torpedo, on the other hand, would be able to hit any target within the launching craft's Search range, requiring a successful Focus to designate the target. The Focus lock would have to be maintained for the entire flight of the missile, or else lock is lost and the missile self destructs.
Savant mode would be an evolution of the proton torpedo, in that, if lock is lost, the torpedo activates a backup homing mode.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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