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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I actually like garhkal's idea of a purpose built comms ship having its shields tuned so as to allow communications through combat shields, perhaps with the penalty being either reduced shield strength or reduced comms range, which would tie in with a comms relay ship sitting several lightyears outside of a system. It could also be that a comms version of the taskforce ship was a later development (i.e. post-Thrawn, or post-Dark Empire).
An alternate penalty could be that on a Wild Dice failure, an attack hits at a moment when the shields have flickered to allow a burst transmission through, and thus do not protect from the attack. Such a vulnerability would necessitate such a ship being escorted... |
On which wild die would that fluctuation failure occur? Shields roll? Damage avoidance roll? Comms roll?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Attack Roll, on wild die success by the attacker. I picture the ship limiting itself to burst transmissions to minimize the shield gaps as much as possible, but there is still the chance an attack will slip through.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Part of the charter states (IIRC) that joining the Alliance means subordinating your local resistance ideals to the strategic goals of the Alliance, including decisions about freedom of information. |
I take it that this was part of what Garm Bel Iblis saw as Mon Mothma's overreach.
I have my doubts about how strongly such a norm would actually work on the side of a rebellion or insurgency. It doesn't seem to me that rebel movements are very good at maintaining such coherence.
But that's beyond the scope of our current conversation.
| crmcneill wrote: | The Munificent is actually a pretty effective cruiser that just also happens to have a very impressive comms suite.
As far as the Interdictor, there are other Interdictor variants available (the Interdictor itself is actually based on the Vindicator Heavy Cruiser hull), so creating a version that mounts significant combat weaponry and also happens to be a versatile ElInt/ECM/Comms platform is not unreasonable. |
I saw your addition to the other thread, and replied to it.
I suppose I'm coming to a bit of a quandary about what we're doing. Originally, my thought process was: 'given the material as has been presented, what can we infer about the structure of naval combat?' As such, I've been extremely hesitant to allow new/home-brew elements, or even things that have minimal support in the literature.
Now that we're starting to talk about a deliverable, maybe we should talk about filling up some gaps - like a comm vessel - but I still think we should derive the overall structure of combat from the given material, such as the list I've produced.
If we take communications as being somewhat of a side-show because regular communications are limited because this is a galaxy that lives in terror, then a comm vessel would be an interesting but not critical component of a fleet.
But are we confident that the state of terror is that high? I think you're right that the Empire is not a North Korea like state. That's too far. But is it like China or Russia, where people know not to say the wrong things, but they feel free to communicate everyday things and they want more of it? Personally, I think that China/Russia is too free a model. I think Turkmenistan under Turkmenbashi is more the model of what we're going for, but I imagine that's a bit too arcane of a reference. I don't know. Maybe that doesn't fit either.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Don't be so quick to paint the Separatists as villains. They may have been used and manipulated by powerful forces, but there was likely genuine popular sentiment on Separatist worlds to the effect that the Republic had become corrupt and was no longer representative of the needs and interests of its people. This thinking was not without reason. Separatist forces controlled large regions of the galaxy, and on those worlds, Separatist forces were the heroes and the defenders, not evil villains. |
That's certainly not impossible. It's just that The Clone Wars depicts them like 2-dimensional (mechanical) mustache-twirling villains. I find it hard to take them seriously.
Still, I wonder how effective the Emperor's propaganda machine has been in painting them as villains in the minds of the Imperial public. Would the rebellion want to communicate: "hey, we're kind of like those guys," or would they prefer to draw distinctions?
Again, that's really beyond the scope.... or not? Do these questions help us think about the degree to which communications and propaganda are really the center of gravity in this civil war that we're trying to understand? The movies certainly make it seem like it was a conventional war rather than an mind war.
| crmcneill wrote: | | As to the Munificent class, its description on Wookieepedia specifically states that several ships ended up in Alliance service. What "several" means is open to interpretation. Personally, where the Imperial Navy is primarily uniform, I think the Alliance Fleet will be as varied as possible, and using Separatist ships (both from the films and the Clone Wars TV series) alongside WEG based Alliance ships is an excellent way to add variety to an Alliance fleet group. |
Very good point. I guess I just don't really care for the way in which the Separatists are portrayed in the prequels and The Clone Wars that I have a hard time taking them serious enough to want to let them infringe upon my imagination. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I've been extremely hesitant to allow new/home-brew elements, or even things that have minimal support in the literature. |
The problem there is that, since Star Wars passed out of WEG's hands before the prequels or the Clone Wars TV series, there is a lot of canon material (prequel ships and the like) that can only exist if someone homebrews stats for them. Quite frankly, considering the quality of some of the WEG material, there are some fan stat writers that I would stack against WEG writers any day.
My only drawback is the number of writers coming up with original material in a universe already glutted with material, when they could be filling in the blanks. I absolutely love Ansel Hsiao's Bellator-Class Dreadnought, and it is one of the few homebrew ships to actually be made canon (since it is based off of a background ship in Dark Empire 2), but why did it have to be something new, when it could've been the Mandator or the Procurator, or any of the other ships that get mentioned but never imaged or statted in the EU material?
| Quote: | | If we take communications as being somewhat of a side-show because regular communications are limited because this is a galaxy that lives in terror, then a comm vessel would be an interesting but not critical component of a fleet. |
Modern China may not actually be too far off. There are bits and pieces of everyday life in the SWU that can be seen if you do a little digging. The ImpSB chapter on COMPNOR provides some interesting insight into things, such as how the Empire continues to allow art and other forms of expression, or the chapter on popular music in GG9. IMO, China is a pretty good analogy, except that China seems to be creeping more and more towards freedom, while the Empire was headed away from it. It's not that there isn't some freedom, but it is only what the government allows the citizenry to have, and it can be revoked at a moment's notice/
| Quote: | | It's just that The Clone Wars depicts them like 2-dimensional (mechanical) mustache-twirling villains. I find it hard to take them seriously. |
Not always. There was a two-episode arc in Season 3 (episodes 10-11) that dealt with the idea that there were "real people" on the Separatist side too. They can't have all been just droids and corrupt businessmen.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I wrote: | | I've been extremely hesitant to allow new/home-brew elements, or even things that have minimal support in the literature. |
The problem there is that, since Star Wars passed out of WEG's hands before the prequels or the Clone Wars TV series, there is a lot of canon material (prequel ships and the like) that can only exist if someone homebrews stats for them. Quite frankly, considering the quality of some of the WEG material, there are some fan stat writers that I would stack against WEG writers any day. |
I'll agree with that - especially since WEG's stats can sometimes conflict with what we can see (eg: ISD2 & Marauder). You've also noticed that when there is an absolute absence of stats for ships that are both established and fill a critical niche, such as your Delta-class Troop Transport, that I'm urging you to establish them on the Holocron.
What I'm aiming to do is to have a product that fits rather solidly into what's been published.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I wrote: | | If we take communications as being somewhat of a side-show because regular communications are limited because this is a galaxy that lives in terror, then a comm vessel would be an interesting but not critical component of a fleet. |
Modern China may not actually be too far off. There are bits and pieces of everyday life in the SWU that can be seen if you do a little digging. The ImpSB chapter on COMPNOR provides some interesting insight into things, such as how the Empire continues to allow art and other forms of expression, or the chapter on popular music in GG9. IMO, China is a pretty good analogy, except that China seems to be creeping more and more towards freedom, while the Empire was headed away from it. It's not that there isn't some freedom, but it is only what the government allows the citizenry to have, and it can be revoked at a moment's notice. |
Actually, let's back up some. Instead of the Empire being like Modern China - what about Mao's China of the 1950s-1970s? That seems to make a lot more sense. You can say what you like about the degrees of freedom in the China of Deng Xiaoping and his successors, but Deng definitely made life better for the Chinese as a whole and set China on a path towards astounding improvement. On the other hand, Mao created a brutal but coherent China out of a chaotic mess, not unlike the Emperor.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I wrote: | | It's just that The Clone Wars depicts them like 2-dimensional (mechanical) mustache-twirling villains. I find it hard to take them seriously. |
Not always. There was a two-episode arc in Season 3 (episodes 10-11) that dealt with the idea that there were "real people" on the Separatist side too. They can't have all been just droids and corrupt businessmen. |
I'll take your word for it. I'm fairly sure that I must have seen those episodes, but I've been pretty bad about remembering specifics. (If you value your brain, don't get a Ph.D. Do crack or something less damaging.)
Anyway, to get ourselves back on track for this thread: I happened upon the section on communications in the Starships of the Galaxy (2001 ed.). It pretty much affirms what we already concluded in previous pages. It doesn't mention anything about subspace relay stations, but (to use Rumsfeld) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 
The only wrinkle is that it implies that hypercomm doesn't use a network of stations, by stating that HoloNet does. This is why HoloNet is instantaneous communication, whereas hypercomm can have a lag time.
I suggest that we stick with our conception, and assume that the difference is that the HoloNet-specific stations boost the power output of the narrowcast of the signal. This is what makes the power output so costly. It can also answer the question of why select VIP Lambda-class shuttles can communicate by way of the HoloNet without having that kind of power output capacity. They're limited by range, not by the ability to have the bandwidth. In order to use the HoloNet, such a shuttle needs to be in much closer range to a HoloNet relay station in order to tap into the network, whereas a Star Destroyer has the capacity to narrowcast much farther to reach a HoloNet relay station.
Make sense? |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
Anyway, to get ourselves back on track for this thread: I happened upon the section on communications in the Starships of the Galaxy (2001 ed.). It pretty much affirms what we already concluded in previous pages. It doesn't mention anything about subspace relay stations, but (to use Rumsfeld) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The only wrinkle is that it implies that hypercomm doesn't use a network of stations, by stating that HoloNet does. This is why HoloNet is instantaneous communication, whereas hypercomm can have a lag time.
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Hmm, sounds a bit like short wave radio. IRL one of the ways to boost the range of a signal is to shorten the wavelength. Perhaps hypercomm does something similar in a Star Wars fashion?
Note that this would not contradict or be incompatible the the idea of relay stations. In fact it would tend to support the idea, since a booster relay would mean faster, more reliable, and better quality transmissions.
It would also make HoloNet much more attractive, since the quality would be consistent, whereas Hypercomm quality could vary considerably. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Hmm, sounds a bit like short wave radio. IRL one of the ways to boost the range of a signal is to shorten the wavelength. Perhaps hypercomm does something similar in a Star Wars fashion? |
Maybe that's how they convert a 3d hypercomm signal through the HoloNet relay stations.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Note that this would not contradict or be incompatible the the idea of relay stations. In fact it would tend to support the idea, since a booster relay would mean faster, more reliable, and better quality transmissions. |
I don't think the quandary is about that, it's about the existence of a network. We do know that the HoloNet has a series of relay stations. That's fairly well established. I guess what the implication from published material draws into question is if that network also operates with standard hypercomm. I have no doubt that it could, because I think that the signal uses the same medium (hyperspace) with greater bandwidth.
I also think that both operate by narrow-cast, because it seems unfathomable to me to generate the amount of power to flood the entire galaxy with a signal that can be picked up anywhere where hyperspace can reach.
I think that Crmcneill and I pretty much came to agreement on the notion that the big difference is the bandwidth necessary to accommodate 3d and the power necessary to make it in real-time.
I think where my thoughts have begun to stray is about the existence of relay-station networks. That they exist for the HoloNet, and that the HoloNet is regulated by the Empire is beyond question. Where I have my doubts is where that network exists for other means of communication.
The existence of a subspace relay-station network is established for the Rayter Sector. But maybe the Rayter Sector is rare in this regard, and most of the galaxy lacks a subspace relay-station network.
So that's the quandary - what communications networks are there in the galaxy, and how is that in flux as the civil war develops? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
So that's the quandary - what communications networks are there in the galaxy, and how is that in flux as the civil war develops? |
Hmm, tough nut to crack.
Well, one thing that probably is worth considering is the business element. While the Empire is a big powerful dictatorship, it also has a big powerful corperate presence. Now I would expect that those corporations would not be happy if there were high speed comm systems for the military but not for them. It could cost them billions upon billions.
So I forone would think there is probably some sort of relays out there, and probably not all under direct Imperial control.
I also suspect that there is a lot of "piggybacking" going on. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Well, one thing that probably is worth considering is the business element. While the Empire is a big powerful dictatorship, it also has a big powerful corperate presence. Now I would expect that those corporations would not be happy if there were high speed comm systems for the military but not for them. It could cost them billions upon billions. |
Good point, though I wonder about the power of those corporations in comparison to the Emperor's need to choke free speech. I'm not saying that the corporations are not powerful; I just wonder about them in relation to COMPNOR. Also, I believe that COMPNOR and the corporations are incestuously intertwined with one another. In that respect, I think your piggy-back theory is very well taken. More than likely, the favored corporations use the HoloNet for their business, and the unfavored corporations can just suck it.
In a political-economic system like the Empire, I think it's important to throw Adam Smith into the trash because of two features:
Politically, it's not a truly multi-state system - it's manifestly hegemonic Empire.
Economically, there is no honest competition for efficiency. It's an oligopoly of firms that do not compete for efficiency, they compete for political favor.
Okay, I'm belaboring the point. I'll stop.  |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Attack Roll, on wild die success by the attacker. I picture the ship limiting itself to burst transmissions to minimize the shield gaps as much as possible, but there is still the chance an attack will slip through. |
Hmm.. I was more thinking it would be linked (poss complication) for the comms ship for getting a 1 on the wild die when using shields or comms that round.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, it's good stuff.
But I don't think the Empire is quite as powerful politically. From what I see in the films, it isn't quite the iron fisted dominant monster it wants to be. It has to run a hearts & minds campaing to keep going, and make all sorts of secret deals to keep going.
Especially if we follow the EU, where there is a Cooperate Sector that is practically an autonomous entity. To get that level of freedom the corps have to have a lot of clout. And it must obviously have it own communcations network, right?
Think how long the Empire would last if companies like KDY and Sienar were to stop producing ships for the military.
There really is a practical limit to how much brute force an oppressive regime can use. It's much easier, in the long run, to get people to join you willingly than to take and control them entirely by brute force. I think all the major corporations are favored by the Empire to some extent (otherwise they become a potential threat, and worse still they know it), and routinely played off against each other to keep them in check. I suspect all the corporations have their own communications networks and said networks are infiltrated and hacked into by spies working for rival corporations and the Empire. It's just that sorta Galaxy. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Nah, it's good stuff. |
I agree with much of what you say, though not necessarily your conclusion. Because this is somewhat beyond the scope of the topic, let's move this over to my old Imperial Bureaucracy thread, since it relates better there. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | The existence of a subspace relay-station network is established for the Rayter Sector. But maybe the Rayter Sector is rare in this regard, and most of the galaxy lacks a subspace relay-station network.
So that's the quandary - what communications networks are there in the galaxy, and how is that in flux as the civil war develops? |
There is definite evidence of some form of relay network that spreads information across the galaxy at much lower speeds than the Holonet. It could be a mix of both subspace relays, where signals can be relayed from one end of the galaxy in weeks or months (depending on message priorities), or messages can be placed in some form of hard storage and delivered by courier ships. It is likely a combination of both, with the method used depending on a variety of factors, including economics and security.
Also, for more information, check the Imperial Intelligence Analysis section, on pages 27-28. If anything, it seems that the Empire allows communication so that it can in turn monitor that communication as part of keeping an eye on its citizenry.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Nah, it's good stuff.
But I don't think the Empire is quite as powerful politically. From what I see in the films, it isn't quite the iron fisted dominant monster it wants to be. It has to run a hearts & minds campaing to keep going, and make all sorts of secret deals to keep going.
Especially if we follow the EU, where there is a Cooperate Sector that is practically an autonomous entity. To get that level of freedom the corps have to have a lot of clout. And it must obviously have it own communcations network, right?
Think how long the Empire would last if companies like KDY and Sienar were to stop producing ships for the military.
There really is a practical limit to how much brute force an oppressive regime can use. It's much easier, in the long run, to get people to join you willingly than to take and control them entirely by brute force. I think all the major corporations are favored by the Empire to some extent (otherwise they become a potential threat, and worse still they know it), and routinely played off against each other to keep them in check. I suspect all the corporations have their own communications networks and said networks are infiltrated and hacked into by spies working for rival corporations and the Empire. It's just that sorta Galaxy. |
IIRc for the corp sector, they pay quite a bit TO the empire just to stay out of their business. As for sienar and KDY, those are owned in part by the empire (or loyalists to them at least).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was more thinking it would be linked (poss complication) for the comms ship for getting a 1 on the wild die when using shields or comms that round. |
I considered that, but felt that getting in a lucky shot was more dependent on the attacker's roll. In addition, we have yet to decide a lot of the details regarding a combat comms ship, so we don't know if it is using its comms all the time or just on selective occasions. A lot still to be narrowed down...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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