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Revising Official Capital Ship Stats
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
The Star Destroyers are practically invulnerable as they are.
No they're not. Combined fire from multiple snubfighters, starfighter–scale torpedo boats, or surprise weapons could easily take them down. The lack of a starfighter scale defenses was a glaring error I exploited as a player. I never run a capital combat ship without powerful anti-starfighter defenses.


In my campaign, the players don't have access to an ideal complement of ships. They have a Nebulon-B, two corvettes, a bulk cruiser, 2 squadrons of Z-95's, 2 squadrons of R-41 Starchasers, and one squadron of Y-wings (it's not even theirs anyway - it belongs to the Rebel commander).
What tactics are they using and do they have opportunity to refit the corvettes? The rebel force looks like enough to bring down a VSD with good tactics...


They're going up against a VSD and two Acclamators. They haven't considered attacking yet.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
They're going up against a VSD and two Acclamators. They haven't considered attacking yet.
Why not? The best defense...

Even if they weren't a powerful force—which they are—failing to consider attack eliminates half the available tactics.

I'd consider setting the Y-wings and starchasers up in the frigate's fighter bay, their torpedo launchers serving as a broadside. The Z-95s could act as a fighter screen for the frigate, while it closes with the VSD. The Corvettes, meanwhile, could serve as a screen from the turbolaser fire.

The capital ships could charge in up above the destroyer, roll down behind the larger ship, and fire on their engines. Cripple the "flagship", and the objective of the operation becomes defense of the destroyer, rather than chasing the rebels.
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
They're going up against a VSD and two Acclamators. They haven't considered attacking yet.
Why not? The best defense...

Even if they weren't a powerful force—which they are—failing to consider attack eliminates half the available tactics.

I'd consider setting the Y-wings and starchasers up in the frigate's fighter bay, their torpedo launchers serving as a broadside. The Z-95s could act as a fighter screen for the frigate, while it closes with the VSD. The Corvettes, meanwhile, could serve as a screen from the turbolaser fire.

The capital ships could charge in up above the destroyer, roll down behind the larger ship, and fire on their engines. Cripple the "flagship", and the objective of the operation becomes defense of the destroyer, rather than chasing the rebels.


I think one of the reasons they haven't considered it is because they aren't really in charge of the fleet.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RexMundiAbu wrote:
Going back to your improvements to ships , I dont really like changing the stats of ships myself and the star destroyer one I'm not sure what to do with tbh . I was thinking that your version of the IPV-1 does fit its role better BUT I would just make it a newer version e.g. IPV-2 .

To clarify, my point was not to make a new and improved version of the IPV, but to change the stats to better fit its mission. In the 2E stats, an IPV with 4 turbolasers has a very difficult time engaging starfighter-scale targets, which would be a primary foe of a ship designed as a law enforcement sentry. Since the WEG version was equipped with lasers (1E) or turbolasers (2E), I decided to meet in the middle and give the ship two of each so that it could be equally effective against both starfighters and capital ships.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, as part of this, I think I'm going to change up some stats, specifically the Carrack, Strike and Dreadnaught. Seeing as how they are designated as light, medium and heavy cruisers, I went looking for information on how those classes were defined in real world navies. The actual descriptors of light and heavy stopped being used after the end of WWII, with the advent of missile-armed warships over gun-armed ships. Medium cruiser had actually fallen out of use some time before that. Generally, the designation of light, medium or heavy indicated the ship's tonnage, which in turn was an indicator of the size of guns it could mount.

Pretty much every warship from frigates and destroyers up to battleships and carriers mounted some form of light cannon, in the 5"-6" range, which could be used against surface ships or aircraft. While destroyers and frigates would carry a handful of light cannon, light cruisers would mount the exact same size of cannon, but carry 2-3 times as many of them.

Heavy cruisers, on the other hand, mounted both the light DP cannon and heavier guns used for anti-ship attacks. Whereas a light cruiser and a heavy cruiser might both have 10-12 light DP cannon, a heavy cruiser also have 9 heavy guns in the 8" range. A battleship would have roughly double that number of light guns along with 9 heavy guns in the 12" to 16" range.

This doesn't really match the weapons loadouts on the cruisers listed in the SWU. For instance, the Carrack, which as a light cruiser should be equipped with light turbolaser cannon similar to those found on frigates like the Nebulon B (just more of them), has nothing but heavy guns (7D damage, equal in Damage to the main batteries on a Victory-Class Star Destroyer).

The Strike-Class Cruiser is another example; it basically mounts a heavy cruiser's armament, and only gives up 1D+1 in Soak potential to an Imperial Star Destroyer, despite the fact that its description lists it as being more vulnerable to damage due to its modular nature.

What I'm thinking of doing is changing the armament on the Carrack, Strike and Dreadnaught to reflect the real world intentions behind their classification:
    Light Cruiser - Mounts the same types of weapons as a frigate, just more of them

    Medium Cruiser - Similar armament to a light cruiser, but with additional power available to mount more weapons, generally ion cannon.

    Heavy Cruiser - Similar to a Medium Cruiser, but also mounts heavy weaponry that can potentially engage and damage bigger ships, such as star destroyers and star cruisers

I'm going to use my Revised Scale System as the basis, with the armament on the Carrack and Strike being strictly Capital Ship Scale, but with the main batteries on a Heavy Cruiser being on the low end of Dreadnought Scale. Something like this...
    Carrack
    -20 Turbolaser Cannon (2D/5D)
    -20 Laser Cannon (3D/4D Starfighter)
    -5 Tractor Beam Projectors (2D/4D)

    Strike Cruiser
    -20 Turbolaser Cannon (2D/5D)
    -10 Ion Cannon (4D/4D)
    -20 Laser Cannon (3D/4D Starfighter)
    -10 Tractor Beam Projectors (2D/4D)

    Dreadnought
    -10 Turbolaser Batteries (3D/4D Dreadnought)
    -20 Turbolaser Cannon (2D/5D)
    -10 Ion Cannon (4D/4D)
    -20 Laser Cannon (3D/4D Starfighter)
    -10 Tractor Beam Projectors (2D/4D)

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I've been considering adding coordination values to the stats based on the number of weapons in a fire arc. Since the WEG stats are designed to allow weapons to combine their fire to maximize damage or fire control, it might be simpler to pre-calculate the dice values.

For example, an ISD I's 60 Turbolaser Batteries are split equally between its Front, Left and Right Fire Arcs (20 each). If all 20 guns are coordinated to fire together (based on the 2R&E Coordination bonus rules), it would result in a bonus of +6D+2. I'm suggesting putting that bonus into the Fire Arc section of the stat for quick reference, something like so...
    Fire Arc: 20 Front (+6D+2), 20 Left (+6D+2), 20 Right (+6D+2)

Again, the idea is to have a quick reference for how much of a dice bonus is available when coordinating, and thus speed up the combat process...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, a curious thing...

Apparently, medium cruisers are purely a science fiction phenomenon. Historically, there were only light or heavy cruisers...

Could the Strike be a Light Cruiser, just with a different mission / design approach, trading speed for the modular mission capability?
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
So, a curious thing...

Apparently, medium cruisers are purely a science fiction phenomenon. Historically, there were only light or heavy cruisers...

Could the Strike be a Light Cruiser, just with a different mission / design approach, trading speed for the modular mission capability?


True enough, during the great age of sail, a "cruiser" was a mission designation rather than a class of vessel. A vessel would cruise a designated area looking for enemy shipping or ships of war.

It could have been classified as such, but going by it's general nastiness, would lead to it's reputation in the Imperial navy as a powerhouse of a ship for its size or in this case it's class. Similar to the original frigates of the US navy, that while only having a single gun deck were built as heavy as the Line of Battle ships of any other navy.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynanbloodbane wrote:
It could have been classified as such, but going by it's general nastiness, would lead to it's reputation in the Imperial navy as a powerhouse of a ship for its size or in this case it's class. Similar to the original frigates of the US navy, that while only having a single gun deck were built as heavy as the Line of Battle ships of any other navy.

I'm considering shifting the armament for the Carrack and the Strike to make them both Light Cruisers, with the Carrack geared towards speed and durability and the Strike geared toward multi-role mission support. The Strike's heavy armament is actually better suited to a Heavy Cruiser than a Light...
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
cynanbloodbane wrote:
It could have been classified as such, but going by it's general nastiness, would lead to it's reputation in the Imperial navy as a powerhouse of a ship for its size or in this case it's class. Similar to the original frigates of the US navy, that while only having a single gun deck were built as heavy as the Line of Battle ships of any other navy.

I'm considering shifting the armament for the Carrack and the Strike to make them both Light Cruisers, with the Carrack geared towards speed and durability and the Strike geared toward multi-role mission support. The Strike's heavy armament is actually better suited to a Heavy Cruiser than a Light...


That's my point, the Navy classifies it as a light cruiser, not because it is, but because they can order more & it out performs any other light cruiser, allowing the navy to look good and replace the older Carracks with newer Strikes. Just the type of politics the military loves to use. Story trumps reality, sometimes even in reality. Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The flipside is that the Carrack's speed and durability make it a natural for the Navy's Pursuit Lines. The Strike just wouldn't measure up there. But the bigger problem (AFAIAC) is that the Strike really is too heavily gunned for its size. Even without the Medium Cruiser designation, it outguns the only Heavy Cruiser in the WEG's stat roster. If anything, the Dreadnought should have the Strike's armament.
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The flipside is that the Carrack's speed and durability make it a natural for the Navy's Pursuit Lines. The Strike just wouldn't measure up there. But the bigger problem (AFAIAC) is that the Strike really is too heavily gunned for its size. Even without the Medium Cruiser designation, it outguns the only Heavy Cruiser in the WEG's stat roster. If anything, the Dreadnought should have the Strike's armament.

Except the Dreadnaught is like three decades older minimum. A Strike is state of the art tech, it should have better weapons for its size.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But not that much better. Under the RAW, the Strike gives up just 1D in Hull and +1 in Shields to the much, much larger Imperial Star Destroyer (and 2D more in Hull than the Victory I). Its main turbolaser batteries at 1D/7D outgun the main batteries on a Victory I (4D/5D), its Ion Cannon are a match for the ones on a Victory II, and all this on a 450 meter long hull that is supposedly "more vulnerable to damage due to its modular construction". Newer technology can only explain so much, especially in the case of a cruiser with stats that don't even match its own description. I can see technology advances resulting in +1D increases in Fire Control or Damage or Sensors or Shields, but the Strike is over the top for what it is supposed to be. On top of that, with such a formidable "medium cruiser", it becomes next to impossible to make stats for a heavy cruiser replacement for the Dreadnought that doesn't actually start to outgun Star Destroyers.
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the quantity of guns, that sets the SDs apart, not the quality. The classification problems you are running into are actually adding realism to the game. Real world navies have created/discarded class designations in many cases due to changing technology, being forced to make use of obsolete vessels & changing mindsets in navy tactics.

Look at the British Navy around 1800, an absolute powerhouse. There are various exceptions and strange classifications but here is the basic breakdown.

-1st rate ship of the line was very heavily built, unwieldy, heavily gunned (around 110 cannon of various shot weight) & ridiculously expensive.

-2nd rate ship of the line heavily built, sometimes unwieldy, heavily gunned (around 90 cannon of various shot weight) & expensive.

-3rd rate ship of the line, backbone of the fleet, sturdy, maneuverable for their size, well gunned (64 to 74 cannon of various shot weight)

-4th rate ship of the line, mostly obsolete ships of war, or converted merchant vessels that are classified as such due to their size. (40-60 cannon)

-5th rate post ship, mostly single deck frigates of 30-40 guns, fast, maneuverable solidly built.

-6th rate post ship mostly single deck frigates & captured French corvettes of 20-30 guns, very fast, highly maneuverable lightly built.

-Unrated ships of war, sloops, brigs & cutters. Commander or lieutenants commands.

Many of the 5th rate post ships would have been able to pound an older 4th rate to bits, because they were newer, could support heavier cannon, could support a full broadside of constant fire and in many cases had better crew.

There were 3rd rate ships of the line armed with heavy short range carronades that fired a broadside heavier than any 1st rate in the fleet.

It may just be the case that the Dreadnaught is the 4th rate of the imperial navy, and there is no call to replace them, when the 3rd rates and 5th rates are better suited to accepted navy doctrine of the time. Nobody wants to command them unless it is their only option for a command. This was the case in the British navy at the time.
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think the VicSDs main guns were too light for the ship and it's role. VicIISDs fixed that for the most part.
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