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garhkal
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 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Check out page 129 in the R&E rule book, it has a conversion chart for space move to ground move.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Check out page 129 in the R&E rule book, it has a conversion chart for space move to ground move. |
I've looked at it in some detail, actually. The main issue is that the conversions aren't a direct match, by which I mean that, when you compare the difference in atmosphere equivalents for, say a Space 4 ship vs a Space 8 ship vs a Space 12 ship, the numbers don't scale up proportionally or regularly, which makes it difficult to calculate penalties equitably.
The more pressing issue, IMO, is that you are talking about adding additional math into the storytelling element, which is something to be avoided if at all possible.
Based on my experience hauling heavily loaded vehicles, I'd say a better place for penalties would be Terrain Difficulty, or just with Maneuverability. Overloaded vehicles do interesting things at high speed...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Overloaded vehicles do interesting things at high speed... |
Such as dovetail their loads, or flip over easier!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Such as dovetail their loads, or flip over easier! |
Exactly, and those sorts of things are well represented on the Movement Failure Chart.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, so I'm back home from the road for a couple days, and I'll be working on the stats for the speeder bikes and swoops. I've been thinking about it for a while now, and the major obstacle I'm looking at as far as stats for the speeder bike is their altitude range. The main reason for my dilemma is how I picture repulsorlift drives functioning. In a nutshell, a landspeeder uses repulsorlifts to support most of its weight, while a separate drive field provides thrust by pushing against the ground itself. An airspeeder, on the other hand, uses repulsorlifts to completely neutralize the vehicle's weight, then uses a separate, directional impeller field to maneuver the vehicle, without requiring contact with the ground.
The big pro/con between the two is that, while landspeeders have to stay close to the ground, they are also more stable, and don't have to worry about crashing into the ground, since their drive field also keeps them from actually coming into contact with it. Other obstacles, such as trees and the like, are another matter, but in that sense, a repulsorlift can be treated much like we treat cars; it may not be as fast or high-flying as a plane, but at least you don't have to worry about it running into the ground if you get too close. In that sense, airspeeders are more like airplanes, in that, while their impeller drive can push them all the way up into low orbit, it doesn't directly interact with the ground underneath the vehicle, and thus can't prevent a collision. It can go into hover mode when taking off and landing, but lacks the drive field found on landspeeders, and must thus tread carefully when close to the ground.
As an aside, this is also my explanation for why some vehicles, such as Luke's landspeeder, can hover when parked, while others, such as the T-47, have landing gear. The landspeeder's drive field maintains a grip on the ground, thus allowing it to hold position when parked. Airspeeders, lacking this field require the stability of actual contact with the ground.
Based on that criteria, I've pretty well established that a speeder bike is in the landspeeder category (they aren't seen to have landing gear in ROTJ), but I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the drive fields functioning more than a few meters off the ground (as they are seen to do in ROTJ). I'd like to hear some input on this before I proceed with the stat, though.
Swoops, on the other hand, if going by the 1E version, are almost like miniature airspeeders. It would even make sense, given how dangerous a Swoop can be to inexperienced drivers, to have it be more like a tiny aircraft, with the attendant hazards of getting too close to the ground.
I'm also picturing skiffs into two different categories; ground skiffs with landspeeder-style drive fields, and air skiffs for higher altitude use. I'm even picturing sail barges being more like airspeeders, able to operate 2-3 kilometers off the ground. For whatever reason, air skiffs and sail barges seem as though they would be much more useful and versatile with a greater altitude range. I picture sail barges drifting through the skies around Coruscant's towers, like a cross between a yacht and a modern blimp. Air skiffs would also be much more useful, maybe serving as high-altitude work platforms or delivery vehicles, maybe even too-your-window food service, like this guy in The Fifth Element:
The big stumbling block at this point is that, while I have pretty well settled the difference between airspeeders and landspeeders in my own head, there are certain vehicles that would seem to operate as both. I'm not sure a hybrid drive system would be the right approach; at the very least, I'd want some sort of explanation as to why every airspeeder doesn't have it.
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps power level? A lot of those larger airspeeders/skiffs/sail barges, seem like they could carry greater power generator units..
Or it could be linked to the planet, as we see corsuscant has lots of skywalks and such along with a lot of taller buildings. Perhaps some of those buildings and such project a sort of 'faux gravity plane' between them to enable most of those airspeeder/landspeeders to be USED at the higher altitudes we see in films while on open desert/jungle environs of hoth/yavin and endor, they have only the planet's own grav plane to operate against.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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One distinction for swoops vs speederbikes is that swoops have a thruster-type drive; the repulsor provides lift and some movement, but the real speed is from the thruster.
It could gain its altitude through traditional aircraft style lift through its vanes and speed; not unlike a missile.
That came from some manual or other...can't quote specifics. Personally, I've pretty much dropped the distinction between speederbikes and swoops...the two terms are often interchangeable; like motorcycles and 'hogs'. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps power level? A lot of those larger airspeeders/skiffs/sail barges, seem like they could carry greater power generator units.. |
Why would power level matter? A repulsorlift of sufficient power to lift an object off the ground isn't dependent on power to increase altitude; it's pushing against the local gravity field, not the ground underneath it.
Now, I could see a vehicle the size of a sail barge being equipped with both a surface-effect drive field and an impeller drive, allowing it to operate close to the ground.
For the speeder bike, it might be a power-to-mass ratio issue. If the surface-effect drive field weakens as distance above ground increases, a smaller vehicle (like a speeder bike) would still be able to maintain forward movement with a relatively weak field from 10 meters up, whereas a more massive vehicle would be forced to stay closer to the ground for its drive field to remain effective.
| Quote: | | Or it could be linked to the planet, as we see coruscant has lots of skywalks and such along with a lot of taller buildings. Perhaps some of those buildings and such project a sort of 'faux gravity plane' between them to enable most of those airspeeder/landspeeders to be USED at the higher altitudes we see in films while on open desert/jungle environs of hoth/yavin and endor, they have only the planet's own grav plane to operate against. |
I'd prefer not to tie a useful idea to the one planet in the galaxy the characters are least likely to visit.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | One distinction for swoops vs speederbikes is that swoops have a thruster-type drive; the repulsor provides lift and some movement, but the real speed is from the thruster. |
That's actually a distinction for pretty much every repulsorlift. If you want to go fast, you have to have auxiliary thrust of some kind, hence why even Luke's XP34 had three turbine boosters.
| Quote: | | It could gain its altitude through traditional aircraft style lift through its vanes and speed; not unlike a missile. |
Too low tech for my tastes, and those vanes don't have the surface area to generate any meaningful lift...
| Quote: | | That came from some manual or other...can't quote specifics. Personally, I've pretty much dropped the distinction between speederbikes and swoops...the two terms are often interchangeable; like motorcycles and 'hogs'. |
I have some friends who own Harleys that would disagree most fervently with you...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking that, for certain vehicles (specifically airspeeders, but some others), there should be a minimum altitude, as well as a maximum. If you drop below that minimum, Terrain Difficulty would go up (I'm thinking +10). Vehicles operating below that minimum altitude would have to move very slowly and cautiously (much like how airspeeders and starfighters do when landing and taking off in the films) to avoid hitting something. Once they gain altitude, they can pick up speed and operate normally.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Since I brought it up elsewhere, should vehicles have a Consumables rating (or an Endurance rating, if one chooses to go that route)?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Since I brought it up elsewhere, should vehicles have a Consumables rating (or an Endurance rating, if one chooses to go that route)? |
endurance for fuel and maintenance yes.
food and air, might depend on the atmosphere of the setting. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Okay, here are the speeder bikes and swoop. I've downgraded the swoop's maximum altitude (the SW Sourcebook topped it out at 350 meters) to make it more like a souped speeder bike than a miniature airspeeder.
My original vision for landspeeders was that their drive field limited them to within a few meters of the ground, but that left me with something of a quandary on the speeder bikes, since film evidence shows them operating well above that during the Endor chase.
The theory I'm going with to give them higher altitude is by saying that the drive field's effectiveness is a function of both proximity and power-to-mass ratio. In other words, a landspeeder's drive field can move less and less mass the further it gets from the surface against which it is exerting tractive force. Something small and light like a speeder bike can still exert that force 10-20 meters off the ground due to its low mass and high relative power.
Incidentally, I'm also considering changing the Scale name for this class of vehicles from "Flitter" to "Swoop", and grouping them all under the "Swoop Operation" skill, since the controls on speeder bikes bear more similarity to swoops than they do to landspeeders.
Speeder Bikes & Swoops
Civilian Speeder Bike
Craft: Ikas-Adno's Starhawk
Type: Speeder Bike
Scale: Swoop (+2D)
Length: 2.5 meters
Skill: Swoop Operation: Starhawk
Crew: 1
Crew Skill: Varies Dramatically
Passengers: 1 (or additional 50 kg. of Cargo)
Cargo Capacity: 20 kg.
Cover: 1/4
Cost: 5,000 new, 950 used
Maneuverability: 3D
Move: 140; 400 kph (6D+2 Surface)
Altitude Range: 0-15 meters
Body: 3D
Sensors:
Passive 1 km / 0D
Military Speeder Bike
Craft: Aratech's 74-Z
Type: Military Scout Speeder Bike
Scale: Swoop (+2D)
Length: 2.5 meters
Skill: Swoop Operation: 74-Z
Crew: 1
Crew Skill: Varies Dramatically
Cargo Capacity: 50 kilograms (or 1 passenger)
Cover: 1/4
Cost: 6,750 new, 1,200 used
Maneuverability: 3D
Move: 175; 500 kph (7D Surface)
Altitude Range: 0-25 meters
Body: 3D
Sensors:
Passive 1km / 1D
Scan 1.5km / 2D
Search 2km / 3D
Focus 200m / 4D
Weapons:
Light Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Vehicle Blasters
Fire Control: 2D
Range: 100m-200m/500m/1km
Damage: 6D
Swoop
Craft: Mobquet's Nebulon Q
Type: Swoop Racer
Scale: Swoop (+2D)
Length: 2.5 meters
Skill: Swoop Operation: Nebulon Q
Crew: 1
Crew Skill: Varies Dramatically
Cargo Capacity: 20 kilograms
Cover: 1/4
Cost: 5,500 new, 1,050 used
Maneuverability: 4D
Move: 210; 600 kph (8D+2 Surface)
Altitude Range: 0-35 meters
Body: 2D
Sensors:
Passive 1km / 0D
Rebel Speeder Bike
Craft: Mobquet's Overracer (Modified)
Type: Speeder Scout Bike
Scale: Swoop (+2D)
Length: 2.6 meters
Skill: Swoop Operation: Speeder Bike
Crew: 1
Crew Skill:
Sensors 4D
Vehicle Blasters 4D+1
Swoop Operation 4D+2
Passengers / Cargo Capacity: 1 or 50 kilograms
Cover: 1/4
Cost: 8,000 (new), 3,200 (used)
Maneuverability: 3D+2
Move: 185; 530kph (7D+2 Surface)
Altitude Range: Ground - 20 meters
Body: 1D+2
Sensors:
Passive 1km / 1D
Scan 1.5km / 2D
Search 2km / 3D
Focus 200m / 4D
Stealth 1D
Weapons:
Medium Repeating Blaster
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1
Skill: Vehicle Blasters
Fire Control: 2D
Range: 3m-50m/150m/400m
Rate of Fire: 2D Auto-Fire
Damage: 4D
House Rule Notes:VELOCITY MODIFIER:
-Starhawk: 3D+1 Surface
-74-Z: 3D+2 Surface
-Nebulon-Q: 4D+1 Surface
-Overracer: 4D Surface
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:45 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps power level? A lot of those larger airspeeders/skiffs/sail barges, seem like they could carry greater power generator units.. |
Why would power level matter? A repulsorlift of sufficient power to lift an object off the ground isn't dependent on power to increase altitude; it's pushing against the local gravity field, not the ground underneath it.
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I liken it somewhat to how some hover mowers are. The lower powered ones can't get that high off the ground you are cutting. But some of the higher powered ones can get almost half a foot off the ground.. More power, more push.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I liken it somewhat to how some hover mowers are. The lower powered ones can't get that high off the ground you are cutting. But some of the higher powered ones can get almost half a foot off the ground.. More power, more push. |
Different physics. And since I've lost count of the number of times I've had to explain how repulsorlifts function (based on their in-universe description combined with an elementary knowledge of how gravity works), I'm not going to explain it, beyond saying that an air cushion vehicle is different from an anti-gravity one, and that extra power is not a factor in how high off the ground an anti-grav vehicle can get.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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