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Resolving the Lancer / Tartan Confusion
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The problem is that it's not even good at what it was supposedly designed for. A Tartan cruiser can't hold up in a capital ship slugging match either, but at least it can operate decently against starfighters and operate efficiently as an escort to a larger ship designed to battle capital ships.

I understand having ships with flaws out there, but the Lancer is just garbage. They even look similar. I'm with Mcneil about giving the Lancer an overhaul, and making it fit more with its description.

Click here for my first effort at updating the Lancer. It still has the low Consumables, but the weapon systems have been reworked and updated to better fit both the current rules and WEG's own description of the ship.

On the same page, you'll also find rules for an updated Lancer II-class with turbolaser batteries added, as well as for a Nebulon frigate upgraded with quad-laser towers from the Lancer in place of laser cannon.

The important thing to remember about the stats for the Tartan, though, is that they are homebrew, and should be taken with a grain of salt as far as quality and playability. If nothing else, putting all of the Tartan's cannon in the left and right arcs while leaving the bow and stern undefended is a questionable choice.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedKnight wrote:
Is the Tartan perhaps a long range patrol/escort version of the Lancer, designed for operations distant from bases and possibly in small detached flotillas.

The problem here is the overly specialized armament. A long-range patrol variant will need a mix of weapon types, as it will be all on its own. It will likely hold its own against any starfighter-scale opponents, but any capital-scale attacker will eat it for lunch.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Phalanks Balas wrote:
I always think Lancer class vessel wasn't a frigate class ship but only an escort corvette designed to defend convoy like Nebulon-B Frigate do.

Classification of naval vessels into groupings by size has a certain arbitrariness to it, as if whoever was in charge of such classification simply says "well, we have to draw the line somewhere." In this case, though, i see it more as being on the smaller end of the frigate scale rather than the large end of the corvette scale. After all, if this ship is the absolute upper limit of the corvette class (at 250 meters) and the Carrack Light Cruiser (at 350 meters) is the absolute lower limit for the cruiser class, that leaves only a 100 meter length to classify frigates. Personally, I put the upper limit for corvettes at 200 meters, with the 195-meter long Guardian-Class Corvette being a "heavy" corvette.


I agree with you. Classification would be better regarding weaponry and size. For exemple Carrack is definitively a medium cruiser regardless of it size.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Click here for my first effort at updating the Lancer. It still has the low Consumables, but the weapon systems have been reworked and updated to better fit both the current rules and WEG's own description of the ship.

On the same page, you'll also find rules for an updated Lancer II-class with turbolaser batteries added, as well as for a Nebulon frigate upgraded with quad-laser towers from the Lancer in place of laser cannon.

The important thing to remember about the stats for the Tartan, though, is that they are homebrew, and should be taken with a grain of salt as far as quality and playability. If nothing else, putting all of the Tartan's cannon in the left and right arcs while leaving the bow and stern undefended is a questionable choice.


Yes, but also having played Empire at War several times through, a couple of Tartan Cruisers make super short work of large groups of starfighters. It is extremely effective at its designed function. It's also faster and more maneuverable than ISDs or VSDs.

So, if the Tartans were supposed to be Lancers, than I feel that they should be accurately represented. Now, some of this could be because I favored a mixed fleet of ISDs and Tartans for effective space dominance in the game...

Now, I'm sure that the game designers of Empire at War made multiple mistakes dealing with this particular ship, but I liked the ship for the function is served, especially against those giant fleets of X-Wing fighters which could swarm even my toughest Capital Ships to death without a proper anti-starfighter escort.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Nebulon B is a classic example of WEGames failing to update the states of a ship between 1E & 2E. I usually bump the damage to 4D, starfighter scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phalanks Balas wrote:
Classification would be better regarding weaponry and size.

The two are certainly interconnected. In the days of sail (as well as modern warships), the size of a ship dictated how many cannon you could safely put on it before it became top-heavy, and thus dangerous to operate in strong weather.

In the case of sci-fi starships, size dictates the size of the power plant you can put onboard, which in turn dictates the weight of weaponry you can have running off that power plant.

Quote:
For example Carrack is definitively a medium cruiser regardless of it size.

I've researched this in the past, and oddly enough, the medium cruiser doesn't actually exist in the real world, only in sci-fi. In the real world, there were only light and heavy cruisers, with the distinction being that heavy cruisers were big enough to mount guns large enough to inflict damage on battleships (generally 8-10"), while light cruisers were restricted to the same size weapons as frigates and destroyers, just with more of them.

I followed this guide when redoing the stats for the Carrack, replacing the 10 turbolaser batteries with 20 dual turbolaser cannon, as would befit a light cruiser. I did bring the medium cruiser concept back for my re-stat of the Strike cruiser by giving it a light cruiser's armament with the option of a modular main battery that could mount heavier weapons.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
The Nebulon B is a classic example of WEGames failing to update the states of a ship between 1E & 2E. I usually bump the damage to 4D, starfighter scale.

Actually, per the WEG stats, capital ship-mounted starfighter-scale weaponry needs a +2D bump across the board, as all the numbers are too low when compared to equivalent weaponry mounted on other ships.

For the Nebulon, I went a step further and gave it the dual laser cannon from the Escort Carrier at 5D Damage. My theory is that the Clone Wars-era ships tended to mount heavy anti-starfighter weaponry, the early Imperial ships not so much, and the later Imperial ships (like the Nebulon) had upgraded defenses from single laser cannon to dual laser cannon. In the Nebulon's case, it gives it the equivalent of a full squadron of TIE/ln's worth of anti-starfighter weaponry.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Kytross wrote:
The Nebulon B is a classic example of WEGames failing to update the states of a ship between 1E & 2E. I usually bump the damage to 4D, starfighter scale.

Actually, per the WEG stats, capital ship-mounted starfighter-scale weaponry needs a +2D bump across the board, as all the numbers are too low when compared to equivalent weaponry mounted on other ships.

For the Nebulon, I went a step further and gave it the dual laser cannon from the Escort Carrier at 5D Damage. My theory is that the Clone Wars-era ships tended to mount heavy anti-starfighter weaponry, the early Imperial ships not so much, and the later Imperial ships (like the Nebulon) had upgraded defenses from single laser cannon to dual laser cannon. In the Nebulon's case, it gives it the equivalent of a full squadron of TIE/ln's worth of anti-starfighter weaponry.


As usual your logic is impeccable.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Yes, but also having played Empire at War several times through, a couple of Tartan Cruisers make super short work of large groups of starfighters. It is extremely effective at its designed function. It's also faster and more maneuverable than ISDs or VSDs.

Based on that, it almost sounds like they tried to mash-up the Lancer and the Corellian Gunship, which was also a good anti-starfighter platform with a Space of 7. Considering the designers called it a Cruiser, referred to it as a Corvette, but made it equal in size to a Frigate, there is still plenty of confusion to go around.

Quote:
So, if the Tartans were supposed to be Lancers, than I feel that they should be accurately represented. Now, some of this could be because I favored a mixed fleet of ISDs and Tartans for effective space dominance in the game...

Now, I'm sure that the game designers of Empire at War made multiple mistakes dealing with this particular ship, but I liked the ship for the function is served, especially against those giant fleets of X-Wing fighters which could swarm even my toughest Capital Ships to death without a proper anti-starfighter escort.

I've already statted out one fast anti-starfighter platform for the Empire in the form of the Raider I & II-Class Corvettes. I'd prefer to keep any re-stat of the Lancer a little slower, probably at Space 6 so that it can keep up with the Star Destroyers it's supposed to help defend.

In general terms, what I'm thinking, based on my original musings, is a basic hull design that, while not modular like the Strike, can be fitted out for multiple uses during construction. I've pretty well settled on the name Soldier-Series Light Frigate, with subtypes being capable of different missions based on loadout.

The Lancer, rather than having a hull designed from the keel out to fit an untested, experimental weapons system, would make use of a tried and true existing ship model, with only the weapons themselves being the experimental part.

I've got some time off today, so I will likely be posting some stats for it this afternoon...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a side note, the first game stats for the Tartan can be found in WOTC's The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide, where the ship is equipped with a single point-defense laser battery, but no mention is made of the ship being limited only to the Left and Right fire arcs. That, apparently, was a decision made by whoever converted the stats over to D6...
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Based on that, it almost sounds like they tried to mash-up the Lancer and the Corellian Gunship, which was also a good anti-starfighter platform with a Space of 7. Considering the designers called it a Cruiser, referred to it as a Corvette, but made it equal in size to a Frigate, there is still plenty of confusion to go around.


In the game, the Corellian Corvette and Tartan Cruiser were on similar ground with the Tartan being a small bit tougher to kill.

The Corellian Gunships were more on par with the Broadside Missile Cruisers, mostly designed for busting larger ships.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The Corellian Gunships were more on par with the Broadside Missile Cruisers, mostly designed for busting larger ships.

I could see that. What with the Gunship's loadout, anti-starfighter capability isn't exactly what it's best at.

Since you mentioned the Broadside, I should note I've got plans in the works to re-stat it, as well, folding it in with the Gladiator-Class Star Destroyer to make a "Gladiator-Class Assault Cruiser", basically an Imperial fast-attack platform like the Assault Cruiser.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soldier-Series Light Frigate



The Soldier-Series Light Frigate is a group of ships with differing equipment and mission profiles that all happen to use the same basic hull. All of the series' sub-classes derive their class names from different types of historical soldiers, and much like its ancient namesakes, the various classes of the Soldier-Series perform a variety of different missions and services.

Classified as a light frigate, Soldier-Series vessels are a relatively common site throughout the galaxy, on long distance solo patrols, convoy escort and other fleet support operations. While the largest operator of the Soldier is the Imperial Navy, local system defense forces make regular use of the versatile little craft.

While the Soldier is well-known as a product of Damorian Manufacturing, Damorian was recently bought out by Kuat Drive Yards. Kuat continues to produce ships under the Damorian label, but has recently begun to release new Soldier variants under the KDY brand name, specifically the new, experimental Lancer-Class Screening Frigate.

Craft: Damorian Manufacturing's Soldier-Series
Type: Multi-Role Light Frigate
Scale: Frigate (+10D)
Length: 250 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: Soldier-Series
Crew: Varies by Sub-Type.
Crew Skill:
Astrogation 3D+2
Gunnery 4D
Piloting 3D+2
Shields 4D
Sensors 4D
Passengers: 50 (troops)
Small Craft Complement:
--2 pinnaces or light shuttles.
Cargo Capacity: 1,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 months
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x12
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D+2
Space: 6
Atmosphere: 330; 950 km/h
Hull: 4D
Shields: 2D+2
Sensors:
Passive 40/1D
Scan 60/1D+2
Search 100/2D+1
Focus 3/3D
Weapons: Varies by Sub-Type.

SUB-TYPES: (Use above stats, except as noted)
    Ranger-Class Patrol Frigate
    Description: The Ranger is the most common Soldier variant, equipped with a well-balanced weapons suite and the endurance required for long distance solo patrols.
    Crew: 470 (175 @ +10) & 30 Gunners
    Weapons:
    8 Dual Turbolaser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 3 Left, 3 Right
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 2-10/25/50
    --Orbital: 4km-20km/50km/100km
    --Atmosphere: 200m-1km/2.5km/5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 5D
    8 Dual Laser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 2 Rear
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Crew: 1
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 5D
    2 Tractor Beam Projectors (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: Front
    Scale: Special*
    Crew: 3
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/10/20
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/20km/40km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1km/2km
    Rate of Fire: 1 (Full Round)
    Damage: 4D
    *May switch between Frigate (+10D) and Starship (+6D). Switch takes one round, during which the projector can not be used.

    Cataphract-Class Torpedo Frigate
    Description: The Cataphract is a dedicated torpedo attack vessel, sacrificing endurance and shield strength, as well as some energy weaponry in trade for increased speed and a trio of powerful proton torpedo launchers. A group of Cataphracts coordinating their fire is a formidable threat to even the most powerful of capital ships.
    Crew: 470 (175 @ +10) & 30 Gunners
    Cargo Capacity: 200 metric tons
    Consumables: 3 months
    Space: 8
    Atmosphere: 365; 1,050 km/h
    Hull: 4D
    Shields: 1D
    Weapons:
    6 Dual Turbolaser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 2-10/25/50
    --Orbital: 4km-20km/50km/100km
    --Atmosphere: 200m-1km/2.5km/5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 5D
    6 Dual Laser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 1 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 1 Rear
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Crew: 1
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 5D
    3 Proton Torpedo Launchers (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 1 Rear
    Crew: 4
    Scale: Destroyer (+12D)
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-6/15/30
    --Orbital: 2km-12km/30km/60km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-600m/1.5km/3km
    Rate of Fire: 1/4
    Damage: 9D
    Ammo: 36 (central magazine supplies all three launchers)
    Special Equipment: Bow Shield Power Shunt
    A Cataphract may shunt power from its lateral controls to boost the power of its front shields. When in use, the ship's Maneuverability drops to 0D, but its Shields increase to 2D+2. Switching between modes requires one round to take effect.

    Outrider-Class Scout Frigate
    Description: The Outrider is a multi-role scout variant that trades weaponry for better stealth and sensors, as well as a pair of ion cannon. It is primarily used as a fleet picket or reconnaissance platform, but has also been used effectively as a privateer or commerce raider.
    Crew: 470 (175 @ +10) & 24 Gunners
    Cargo Capacity: 500 metric tons
    Shields: 2D (Stealth)
    Sensors:
    Passive 60/1D+2
    Scan 90/2D+2
    Search 150/3D+1
    Focus 5/4D
    Weapons:
    4 Dual Turbolaser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Left, 2 Right
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 5D
    2 Ion Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: Front
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-7/17/35
    --Orbital: 2km-14km/34km/70km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-700m/1.7km/3.5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 4D (ionization)
    6 Dual Laser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 1 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 1 Rear
    Crew: 1
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 5D
    2 Tractor Beam Projectors
    Fire Arc: Front
    Scale: Special*
    Crew: 3
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/10/20
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/20km/40km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1km/2km
    Rate of Fire: 1 (Full Round)
    Damage: 4D
    *May switch between Frigate (+10D) and Starship (+6D). Switch takes one round, during which the projector can not be used.

    Sentry-Class Escort Frigate
    Description: The Sentry serves primarily as an ultra-light carrier for convoy defense, carrying a squadron of starfighters.
    Crew: 515 (175 @ +10) & 18 Gunners
    Small Craft Complement:
    --12 Starfighters (1 Squadron)
    --2 pinnaces or light shuttles.
    Cargo Capacity: 200 metric tons
    Consumables: 3 months
    Weapons:
    6 Dual Turbolaser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 2-10/25/50
    --Orbital: 4km-20km/50km/100km
    --Atmosphere: 200m-1km/2.5km/5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 5D
    6 Dual Laser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 1 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 1 Rear
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Crew: 1
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 5D
    1 Tractor Beam Projector
    Fire Arc: Turret
    Scale: Special*
    Crew: 3
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/10/20
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/20km/40km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1km/2km
    Rate of Fire: 1 (Full Round)
    Damage: 4D
    *May switch between Frigate (+10D) and Starship (+6D). Switch takes one round, during which the projector can not be used.

    Marine-Class Combat Transport Frigate
    Description: The Marine is configured as an armed transport, most commonly used to transport company-sized units of ground troops, although it can also be configured as a pure cargo hauler. It has enough firepower to provide some fire support, and is tough enough to land and take off under fire. For this reason, Marines are also popular with private mercenary companies.
    Crew: 515 (175 @ +10) & 18 Gunners
    Passengers / Cargo Capacity: 6,000 metric tons (or 1 passenger per 10 tons of cargo)
    Consumables: 3 months
    Weapons:
    6 Dual Turbolaser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right
    Crew: 2
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 2-10/25/50
    --Orbital: 4km-20km/50km/100km
    --Atmosphere: 200m-1km/2.5km/5km
    Rate of Fire: 1
    Damage: 5D
    6 Dual Laser Cannon (Fire Separately)
    Fire Arc: 1 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right, 1 Rear
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Crew: 1
    Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 3D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 5D

    Lancer II-Class Screening Frigate
    Description: The Lancer II is an updated version of the original Lancer, which was the first Soldier variant produced by KDY after its acquisition of Damorian Manufacturing. The Lancer I was something of a disappointment, as the Fire Control systems suffered from repeated glitches, and the designers had to cut a lot of corners, rerouting a lot of power from engines and maneuvering to sustain the new systems. With the Lancer II, however, most of the difficulties encountered in the Lancer I have been corrected. In addition, the Lancer II has also been upgraded with the ability to serve as a Flight Control platform, able to coordinate the actions of nearby friendly starfighters.

    Crew: 810 (375 @ +10) & 40 Gunners
    Cargo Capacity: 200 metric tons
    Consumables: 2 months
    Maneuverability: 1D
    Sensors:
    Passive 40/1D
    Scan 80/1D+2
    Search 120/2D+1
    Focus 5/3D
    Weapons:
    20 Quad-Laser Cannon
    Fire Arc: 5 Front/Left, 5 Front/Right, 5 Rear/Left, 5 Rear/Right
    Crew: 2
    Scale: Starship (+6D)
    Skill: Starship Gunnery
    Fire Control: 4D
    Range:
    --Space: 1-3/12/25
    --Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
    --Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
    Damage: 6D
    Special Rule: Flight Controller
    Any friendly starfighter within sensor range of the Lancer may add +1D per round to any single relevant Mechanical roll.

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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:54 am; edited 6 times in total
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2129
Location: Pullman, WA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it!
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ForbinProject
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Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the Soldier-Series Light Frigates, but just for clarification in Star Wars what makes a ship a pinnace or a "light" shuttle?

Ship classifications seem to be based on length/size.
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