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Capital Ships, bristling with weapons
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:34 pm    Post subject: Capital Ships, bristling with weapons Reply with quote

Capital ships have a grand number of weapons on them. According to the game, the Imperial class SD has 60 turboloaser batteries, with 20 of them in a fire arc.

There are several shots in the movies where the SD's are chasing and firing at other ships. I can think of the opening shot of ANH and in TESB where an SD chases the Falcon.

In both cases, we don't see anywhere near 20 laser batteries fire at either ship. If a SD Captain ordered that all batteries in a fire arc be used for the single target, then a mass of fire would be generated in that direction.

My guess is that, in both cases, the SD's were trying to capture the target vessel--not blow it to smithereens. Thus, the Captain ordered only a few weapons to fire at either ship.



My question is: What is the default? If an SD is trying to blow up a ship--especially a small ship like the Falcon--does the Captain automatically use all weapons that it can bring to bear?

Or, is there some guideline that a Captain uses when using the ship's weapons? Maybe a conservation of the ship's resources (in this case, Tibanna Gas)?



Obviously, I wonder about translating this to the game. If the PC ship is taking off from Tatooine, which is under Imperial SD blockade, does the GM roll 20 attacks at the PC ship? Or, does the Combination Rule apply, to one die roll, with a hefty modifier for the main battery and 19 other batteries helping it (for an auto hit)?

How to play this fairly?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The combination rule, definitely. It best represents a ship captain ordering all of the cannon in a specific arc to fire in a saturation pattern (as opposed to a point target, which would maximize damage), and also helps keep the game moving (one roll, instead of 20 separate rolls).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: Capital Ships, bristling with weapons Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

My question is: What is the default? If an SD is trying to blow up a ship--especially a small ship like the Falcon--does the Captain automatically use all weapons that it can bring to bear?


There is none that i know of. In the times say i've had a carrak cruiser, or neb b etc, chasing the pc's, ive started with 1 or 2 guns out of the 10 or so in that arc, then it slowly (every other round) ramps up..
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this image of KM Scharnhorst

https://forum.worldofwarships.asia/topic/9249-km-scharnhorst/


looking at it I see 3 tripplebarrel heavy cannons, one rear and two front, all turrets with a 180 degree arc, sideways only.

with about a dozen lighter cannons all spread around the ship.

on a ship this size, even the tetrary guns are large enough to be the main armament of smaller vessels.

so if we scale the capital ships some maybe the gun numbers makes sense.

I would not be 100% comfortable saying a 300m frigate with 6 turbolasers
if tose turbolasers were the same size ( and in the scharnhorst case to illustrate) calibre.

by using eyes, we see on some of the gigantic ship that their weapon emplacemnets seems to be huge as well, a freighter size gun turret needs a big ship.

If we look at the 100s of guns some ships seems to have, and we again look to the image.

did the star destroyers (and supers) actually fire their main guns, or just all the others?

The rebels did in both yavin and endor keep their captal ships in the rear, assaulting with swarms of fighters.

So do I have an issue with 50+ turbolasers? no not at all, but I can not see them being the main destroyer vs destroyer gun.


If we loo to the chase sequence of last jedi, we see the first order actually use their main guns, trying to take out the resistance flagship.

This was a slow, but heavy weapon. it even had the "typical" ballistic arch.

So I think maybe what we see are the secondary and tetriary weapons being used and with sizes in kilometers, I can't see how 50, even 150 is too much.

I do however doubt that the largest gun towers seen on the ships are the ones used, I suspect they are only used against other very large capital ships.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
looking at it I see 3 triple barrel heavy cannons, one rear and two front, all turrets with a 180 degree arc, sideways only.

with about a dozen lighter cannons all spread around the ship.

I took this approach with my stat re-writes, giving corvettes, frigates and light cruisers mixed numbers of dual turbolaser cannon, with corvettes having less than frigates and frigates having less than light cruisers.

Heavy cruisers have the same number of dual cannon as light cruisers, but they are secondary to heavy turbolaser cannon that are its main armament.

Destroyers, in turn, have even more light cannon, backed up by heavy turbolaser batteries (the in-universe equivalent of battleship main batteries).

Dreadnoughts (super star destroyers and such) have the same armament as destroyers, but anywhere from 3-10 times as many.

In addition, all ships have at least some form of anti-starfighter defensive cannon (of varying degrees of effectiveness), as well as specialty weapons (ion cannon, tractor beam projectors, missile and torpedo launchers, etc) depending on mission.

As it pertains to the OP, not all of the weapons are going to be particularly useful against every target. The secondary turbolasers, for example, are likely to be the most effective against a greater variety of targets. This is because their greater number allows them to generate a greater coordinating bonus when combining fire. Depending on how you calculate it, 20 Turbolaser Batteries in one Fire Arc generates a Coordination bonus of around +4D or 5D. When firing at a single target, that bonus can be applied to either Damage or Fire Control, or it can be split between them.

For example, a Star Destroyer firing on a Corellian Corvette in its Front Arc could start with all of its Coordination dice applied to Fire Control in the first round, but find that, while it is getting hits, they aren't concentrated enough to penetrate the Corvette's shields. As such, in the next round, the SD Captain orders his gunners to concentrate their fire on the Corvette (effectively shifting, say, 2D dice from Fire Control to Damage), with the result that the shift in firing pattern brings enough energy to bear that it penetrates the Corvette's shields and inflicts critical damage.

The "secondary" batteries (the primary ones on lighter ships) are going to be the multi-purpose weapons of the ship, in that they can be used to effectively engage more targets of different types than would any other weapon; main batteries are going to be powerful and useful against heavy targets, but will be slow firing and less accurate, while anti-starfighter batteries will be accurate and fast firing, but inflict less damage.

Quote:
If we loo to the chase sequence of last jedi, we see the first order actually use their main guns, trying to take out the resistance flagship.

This was a slow, but heavy weapon. it even had the "typical" ballistic arch.

The only explanation I can think of for weapons having a ballistic arch in space (apart from my low opinion for the new EU in general) is that they were actually proton torpedoes or concussion missiles, being fired obliquely in an attempt to curve their shots around the Raddus' aft shields.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The combination rule, definitely. It best represents a ship captain ordering all of the cannon in a specific arc to fire in a saturation pattern (as opposed to a point target, which would maximize damage), and also helps keep the game moving (one roll, instead of 20 separate rolls).


Defintely use the combination rule, I agree.

But, really, the question is: Is there some method the Captain of a SD uses in directing fire. If he can bring to bear 20 turbo laser batteries, does he always use all 20 batteries (given that he's trying to destroy his foe)?

Or, does he use less? Is there a reason to use less that maximum fire power?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Or, does he use less? Is there a reason to use less that maximum fire power?

Depends on the target he's engaging, I suppose. If you're just using the RAW stats, and firing on pretty much any Starfighter-Scale target, the Captain basically has to put his full Coordination bonus into Fire Control just to offset the Scale difference. For larger, tougher targets, it gets a bit more complicated, even more so if the goal is to disable instead of annihilate (but then, that's what ion cannon are for).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

But, really, the question is: Is there some method the Captain of a SD uses in directing fire. If he can bring to bear 20 turbo laser batteries, does he always use all 20 batteries (given that he's trying to destroy his foe)?


If he's trying to destroy it, i see NO reason why he wouldn't want to push all guns at once..

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Or, does he use less? Is there a reason to use less that maximum fire power?


Scaring compliance with standing down orders is one reason to use less.. Running low on power is another possible..
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Argentsaber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

But, really, the question is: Is there some method the Captain of a SD uses in directing fire. If he can bring to bear 20 turbo laser batteries, does he always use all 20 batteries (given that he's trying to destroy his foe)?


If he's trying to destroy it, i see NO reason why he wouldn't want to push all guns at once..

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Or, does he use less? Is there a reason to use less that maximum fire power?


Scaring compliance with standing down orders is one reason to use less.. Running low on power is another possible..

... ahem, arrogance?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrogance is another biggy..
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