The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

The Case for Advanced Skills
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Official Rules -> The Case for Advanced Skills Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: The Case for Advanced Skills Reply with quote

I wrote this up for another topic, but it applies in general to any Advanced Skill. Assuming a prerequisite skill level of 5D, in just one skill, it makes no sense from a CP cost perspective to continue putting dice into the prerequisite. Here's the numbers:
    CP Cost for Advanced Skill vs. Prerequisite at 5D (Total CP)
    0D->1D = 2 CP vs. 5D->6D = 15 CP (2 vs. 15)
    1D->2D = 6 CP vs. 6D->7D = 18 CP (8 vs. 33)
    2D->3D = 12 CP vs. 7D->8D = 21 CP (20 vs. 54)
    3D->4D = 18 CP vs. 8D->9D = 24 CP (38 vs. 78 )
    4D->5D = 24 CP vs. 9D->10D = 27 CP (62 vs. 108)
    5D->6D = 30 CP vs. 10D->11D = 30 CP (92 vs. 138)
    6D->7D = 36 CP vs. 11D->12D = 33 CP (128 vs. 171)
    7D->8D = 42 CP vs. 12D->13D = 36 CP (170 vs. 207)
    8D->9D = 48 CP vs. 13D->14D = 39 CP (218 vs. 246)
    9D->10D = 54 CP vs. 14D->15D = 42 CP (272 vs. 288)
    10D->11D = 60 CP vs. 15D->16D = 45 CP (332 vs. 333)
    11D->12D = 66 CP vs. 16D->17D = 48 CP (398 vs. 381)

Since Advanced skills stack with prerequisites, it will always be more economical to spend CP on the Advanced skill than on the prerequisite.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12365
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is why i feel there needs to be MORE restrictions on (A) skills than just the 'double XP' cost as is..

Maybe have it, you have to attend some sort of college/school to improve them, you can't just do it on your own. OR maybe you can only improve the (A) Skill up to an equal level to what the pre-req itself is.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2230
Location: Pullman, WA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Increase training time, and do not allow improvements by use in game.

Advanced skills can only be improved by taking the time to work and study at them.

My suggestion is 1 month per CP spent. Which means that you'd be spending most hyperspace journeys training your advanced skill instead of doing other things.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fine with the RAW in this case. Advanced Skills aren't going to be accessible to just anybody, and are actually underused, IMO. I'd like to see a lot more people taking advantage of Advanced Skills as written. There are some very interesting possibilities out there.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2230
Location: Pullman, WA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also okay with character point expenditure as is. I was simply making a suggestion for those who feel that the system is abused without actually making a significant change.

In my games I've switched Martial Arts styles making them Advanced Skills, as well as Lightsaber Forms. Both allowing similar characters to have little things about them which are unique, such as specific techniques for different martial artists.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 995
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always taken advanced skills to require certain tools or materials most times, only be handy in some circumstances at others.

Let's Use the Advanced medicine skill for example. While it stacks with first aid for wound treatment according to RAW, also according to RAW it involves training in advanced surgery and use of advanced medical diagnostic tools. So, out in the muck and the mire of a battlefield, where you have just a medpac, and blaster bolts whizzing past, I do not feel you can use the advanced skill. Additionally, IIRC (book not handy) the Advanced skills often take much longer to use than their pre-requisites.

Just some of my quick thoughts.

I am going to be in a location with limited internet for the next unknown months, so I may not say much...I will try to check in once in a while.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12365
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
So, out in the muck and the mire of a battlefield, where you have just a medpac, and blaster bolts whizzing past, I do not feel you can use the advanced skill. Additionally, IIRC (book not handy) the Advanced skills often take much longer to use than their pre-requisites.


That's a valid point. There are times i can easily see (A) Medicine not applying to a FA roll..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarn
Captain
Captain


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some races - Verpine, I'm looking at you in particular - can fulfill the 5D requirement for almost all (A) skills just by having 5D in TEC. I think that requiring even a pip improvement over the attribute to 'unlock' the (A) skill might be a good idea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2884

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: The Case for Advanced Skills Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Since Advanced skills stack with prerequisites, it will always be more economical to spend CP on the Advanced skill than on the prerequisite.


Of course, if you want to do the "advanced" thing, then the prerequisite does NOT stack. That is, you don't get to add your first aid dice to your (A) medicine dice when using a bacta tank or performing surgery. This is why I think using (A) skills for combat skills is shady.

IMO, if you choose to stack them (I'm talking about combat skills here), then you should not gain the benefits of the advanced skill, but instead, you only get to roll the extra dice (whatever effect the advanced skill is supposed to generate should only come into play when you roll only the advanced skill). However, since advanced skills are not affected by the attribute to which they are attached, it renders them somewhat dubious as combat options, and the whole thing becomes a mess, because if they don't stack then your character goes from rolling 5D to hit to rolling 1D to hit so they "should" stack, but then you run into the question of " but in that case why wouldn't EVERYONE with more than 5D in a combat skill just take an advanced skill from then on?"

I also feel that many advanced skills should have more than one skill prerequisite.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Let's Use the Advanced medicine skill for example. While it stacks with first aid for wound treatment according to RAW, also according to RAW it involves training in advanced surgery and use of advanced medical diagnostic tools. So, out in the muck and the mire of a battlefield, where you have just a medpac, and blaster bolts whizzing past, I do not feel you can use the advanced skill. Additionally, IIRC (book not handy) the Advanced skills often take much longer to use than their pre-requisites.

I disagree. A doctor does not lose his knowledge of medicine just because he's not in a doctor's office surrounded by equipment. It's the base Difficulty of the task that should be increased to match.

Quote:
I am going to be in a location with limited internet for the next unknown months, so I may not say much...I will try to check in once in a while.

Good luck.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The Case for Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Of course, if you want to do the "advanced" thing, then the prerequisite does NOT stack. That is, you don't get to add your first aid dice to your (A) medicine dice when using a bacta tank or performing surgery. This is why I think using (A) skills for combat skills is shady.

I fail to see why it's shady. Using your Medicine example, the stacking only works one direction. Medicine is a body of knowledge based on the basics provided by First Aid. It does not become a completely separate skill, because the skills and information acquired in learning Medicine also apply to the character's understanding of First Aid, and thereby make it more effective.

It's the same way with my (A) Marksman skill. Learning how a specific class of weapons performs at extreme ranges is built on a character's understanding of the basics of that weapon as a starting point. It does not require learning a completely different set of skills, but rather adds to those basics. In much the same way that a soldier learns the basics of firing a rifle before receiving the additional, advanced training needed to hit targets much further away.

I've never seen any restrictions in the RAW on when Advanced skills can and can't be used. AFAIC, MAPs, a particular skill's Time to Use and the Preparation/Rushing rules handle this just fine. Obviously, if a character with (A) Medicine is performing open heart surgery, the Time to Use is likely several hours, and popping a First Aid roll into the middle of that would be inappropriate. In the case of my (A) Marksman skill, where the Time to Use is one standard action, it could just as easily be combined into the same round as an attack, first to determine exactly how far out the shooter can hit (Rolling Marksman to generate the maximum distance for Extreme Range), and then stacking with Blaster to beat the Heroic Difficulty needed to hit a shot that far out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12365
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Some races - Verpine, I'm looking at you in particular - can fulfill the 5D requirement for almost all (A) skills just by having 5D in TEC. I think that requiring even a pip improvement over the attribute to 'unlock' the (A) skill might be a good idea.


I've played under a few DM's who did just that.. All because of verpines and bothans.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 995
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I disagree. A doctor does not lose his knowledge of medicine just because he's not in a doctor's office surrounded by equipment. It's the base Difficulty of the task that should be increased to match.

It's not about losing knowledge, it's about lacking the tools or equipment that knowledge calls to be used.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
It's not about losing knowledge, it's about lacking the tools or equipment that knowledge calls to be used.

So, a doctor who learns all kinds of extra information about various injuries and illnesses can no longer make use of this information because he lacks a bacta tank or a surgical suite? This makes no sense. There are all kinds of stories about doctors using improvised implements to perform advanced first aid techniques like tracheotomies, or even emergency apendectomies. A doctor doesn't suddenly lose those skills just because he doesn't have access to the "proper" equipment.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12936
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Zarn wrote:
Some races - Verpine, I'm looking at you in particular - can fulfill the 5D requirement for almost all (A) skills just by having 5D in TEC. I think that requiring even a pip improvement over the attribute to 'unlock' the (A) skill might be a good idea.


I've played under a few DM's who did just that.. All because of verpines and bothans.

Again, I don't see why it's a problem. If a character has a 5D attribute, it's because that's their baseline level of aptitude on all subjects classified under that attribute. Yes, it's part natural ability, but it also represents the level of training a character has received over the ~20 years or so leading up to the point where he began his life as a player character.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Official Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0