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"Capital Ship Scale" and larger space transports
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is sort of what I meant, change the scale of the weapon systems. not the hull/craft.

I see nothing what so ever wrong with a heavy fighter a punch even a light captal ship scale werapon punch.

after all we see captal ships have both captal and starfighter scale weapons, and we have seen in canon that the concept at least is plausable for starfighters and frieghters.

So yes I can see an x wing type craft ( no not the actual x wing, but similar size and purpose) actually have a captal scale weapon, a starfighter style weapon, and not be captial scale.

As to the skipray it is not captal size, it has captal scale weapons and a captal scale power generator to match, but the ship is not a cpatial ship it is a staerfither scale ship and takes damage as one, but is a "glass" cannon, as the captal scale cannons do give captial scale damage.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
The simplest solution that addresses the text is to leave the scale alone and give the B-wing a capital scale weapon. Changing the laser cannon to 4D capital scale would allow it to have a reasonable chance to damage frigate sized capital ships, especially if 2 or more B-wings combined their fire.

It doesn’t need what it already has; the 7D Heavy Laser Cannon (which is nominally the same as the Dual Heavy Laser Cannon on an AT-AT even though those do 3D less Damage, but I digress) inflicts 1D Capital Scale equivalent Damage.

Quote:
Note that Star Wars canon now conflicts with the WEG rationale and history for the B-wing design.

What, because Disney says so? I’ll pass.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’re both missing the point. The Skipray was designed to work with the 1E Scale System that gave starfighters a Damage Die Cap of 5 against Capital Ships. This was later updated to a Die Cap of 3 for 2E before being replaced with the dice code modifier. Despite the fact that the Scale system has gone through three different versions, the stats for the Skipray itself were only updated to the new 2E standard, with no attempt made to rebalance the ship as the Scale system increased its power. Under the 1E system, capital ships were hugely vulnerable to starfighters, which only suffered a slight drop off in damage potential when facing even ships as large as SSDs.

The end result is a mismatched system where power creep and the law of unintended consequences have resulted in ships with capabilities and limitations not intended by the original designers. Is it really your position that, despite the intent of the original designers, the 2R&E Scale system was somehow just right, and that it’s the ship stats (effectively unchanged apart from updating to the 2E format) that are now retroactively wrong?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It doesn’t need what it already has; the 7D Heavy Laser Cannon <digression snipped> inflicts 1D Capital Scale equivalent Damage.
That is insufficient to damage or even threaten a frigate or light cruiser.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Is it really your position that, despite the intent of the original designers, the 2R&E Scale system was somehow just right, and that it’s the ship stats (effectively unchanged apart from updating to the 2E format) that are now retroactively wrong?
I'll pass. You don't actually seem interested in my opinion anyway.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
It doesn’t need what it already has; the 7D Heavy Laser Cannon <digression snipped> inflicts 1D Capital Scale equivalent Damage.
That is insufficient to damage or even threaten a frigate or light cruiser.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Is it really your position that, despite the intent of the original designers, the 2R&E Scale system was somehow just right, and that it’s the ship stats (effectively unchanged apart from updating to the 2E format) that are now retroactively wrong?
I'll pass. You don't actually seem interested in my opinion anyway.



Exactly.

now I can not for any reason how it is any issue in a frieghter having one capital scale weapon, and this weapon use capital scale, while very other weapon use starfither scale, whay the need to have something extra?

my figher with a capital scale light turbolaser deals 3D damage and this weapon works identically to the light turbolaser on the star destroyer, bot dealing 3D damage to the Corvette.

it now fires its starfighter scale weapons and becuse of the scale adjustment they only deal 1D damage, scratching some paint and barely leaving some scorch marks.

I can not see that thse above can be done within the rules as is on a ship.

what is the difference between a between a corvette with a laser cannon and a frieghter with a laser cannon, bot weapons same scale dealing 3D starfighter scale......all ok.
Then the corvette has weapons deling 3D captal scale...in addition to the light weapons, this is also all ok....
then brainfart once the freighter adds a heavy weapon, somehow this now is a mystery??

I have a modified YT-2000 I have replaced one of the dual laseers with a light turbolaser, and captial scale. I kept the other twin laser canaon that is starfither scale.
nothing what so ever have changed in my ship, i have the same size, but I have a weapon that deals captal damage only, nothingmore.

so any stat writeup will be just like any pther ship and under "scale" on weapon place capital.....no need for added rules what so ever.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
now I can not for any reason how it is any issue in a frieghter having one capital scale weapon, and this weapon use capital scale, while very other weapon use starfither scale, whay the need to have something extra?
I agree that it seems reasonable to me that someone could modify a space transport to carry a capital scale weapon. But I don't think you should be able to just stick a big gun e.g. a capital scale weapon on a smaller scale freighter without some sort of trade off. Here are some of the trade offs that I could see imposing.

1. You can hit really hard, but when you do you become more vulnerable.
So firing the capital scale weapon requires more power than the ship is able to provide so to fire the weapon the ship must pull power from all other weapons, shields, space speed.

2. You can hit really hard, but you don't get to do it every round.
So firing the capital scale weapon requires a build up of power. So the rate of fire might be only 1/2 rounds or 1/3 rounds.

3. You can hit really hard, but you can't do it every round and you have to wind up before throwing that haymaker punch...and maybe you can't do it again the next round.
As 2 above but you also have to accumulate power for 1 or 2 rounds before you can fire the big gun.

Note 1: 2 and 3 are similar to the way the very big gun worked on the starship in the Babylon 5 successor show, Crusade.

Note 2: The stats for the Rebel Assault Frigate has a rate of fire (RoF) of 1/3 for its big guns (turbolaser batteries). I always liked this as a downside to modifying ships to significantly upgrade the weapons to a high damage type of weapon. So WEG has already provided a model of big gun with a lower RoF.

Note 3: At the Battle of Yavin, the Death Star's superlaser needed time to power up before it could fire, so movie canon provides a model of a gun that needs time to charge before it can fire.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power is the other big issue. In both instances (Skipray and Gamma), power is specifically cited as the reason for the shift in Scale, which boosts the Hull and Shields, as well as the ion cannon on the Skipray. In both cases, though, very little room is left over for anything else. Unless your freighter has also been modified with a much more powerful reactor and power distribution system, it’s unlikely that any Capital-Scale weapon would have enough power to be effective.

Cargo Capacity is another problem; any cannon of that scale is going to come with a lot of ancillary equipment that’s going to take up a lot of room.

Not that I’m necessarily opposed to the idea; a YT fitted with turbolasers and losing most of its cargo capacity to hold the capacitors and augmented power systems makes for a great Star Wars bomber analog. But simply strapping a capital scale gun on a ship without any offsetting penalties has real potential to be hugely unbalancing.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
That is insufficient to damage or even threaten a frigate or light cruiser.

It would’ve been under WEG’s earlier scale systems, and still can be with the application of the RoE Accuracy Damage rule. A 6D Scale modifier translates into a likely modifier of +21 on the Gunnery roll, which can push the damage roll up 1-2 levels, depending on the dice spread.

Quote:
You don't actually seem interested in my opinion anyway.

It’s more that your opinion seems to be lacking in the logic I’m used to hearing from you, and I’m struggling to understand that. Out of all the things WEG screwed up, why the insistence that this one rule is what they got right, especially while simultaneously trying to make house rule exceptions around the 6D sized elephant in the room? I mean, doesn’t it seem even a little ridiculous to say that a system that puts a 150-meter Corvette (never mind the Skipray) into the same “size” as a 17,500 meter behemoth like the Eclipse is fine the way it is?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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