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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16400
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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And if you’re looking for visuals, a lot of real-world cars can be converted into SWU Speeders using a few simple steps:1). Remove the wheels.
2). Replace the rear wheels with thruster engine pods.
3). Replace the front wheels with either thruster pods or guidance vanes.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | You really only need to include one piece of fluff from Rules of Engagement to support Naaman's concept of Rebel Special Forces. It was a program that was set up by the defected Crix Madine. Being that he was the commander of Imperial Special Forces, it makes sense that he would try to do what Naaman is talking about. Mirroring the best qualities of Imperial Spec Force while giving it the responsible conscience of the Rebellion.
Also, by the timeline in which he defected to the Rebellion, they were steadily on the rise, nearing the time of the operation to Endor. |
That's a good point. One of the things that is influencing my interpretation of SpecForce capabilities is the quote at the biginning of RoE that talks about "in 30 minutes, I can assemble a team of 20 soldiers capable of completing amy mission anywhere in the galaxy" (paraphrased).
I'm still reading about SpecForce and what separates them from the regular troops, trying to make sense of it all. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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CRM: Concerning the reference to the revolutionary war, this is exactly what I am getting at. The colonial forces had the same kind of ordinance as the British forces.
Both sides used guerrilla tactics and were, essentially, the same kind of forces. Infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc.
As for budget, both sides ran out of money. But the Americans were willing to fight for free, thus forcing the Brits into a war of attrition, and thereby demoralizing their forces (on top of whatever other complications the Brits were experiencing).
If canon dictates that the alliance "cannot" win a war of attrition, then that tactic is off the table and there must be some other means by which to pose a credible threat to the empire.
Now, as for "the main problem being [my] insistence..." you may want to go back and find the first reference to Taliban forces and check both who mentioned it, the context of his analogy, and the counter arguments offered by a different poster.
I said the comparison was NOT appropriate because the Taliban are evil and the Rebels are not.
As for troop and equipment availability, my take is this: troops and equipment are as concentrated or as dispersed as the GM needs them to be for the story he is telling.
I'm not advocating for the entire Alliance military to function like a real world conventional force. On the other hand, the US military, as of late, has learned A LOT about counter insurgency both by fighting insurgencies and by cultivating them. If there is any force that the Rebel SpecForces are probably comparable to, it is without a doubt, Green Berets.
FWIW, your mention of my personal experience may be more apt than is apparent: none of the training I received in the military had anything to do with fighting a conventional war. Later, when I was in the reserves and things were getting hot with Iran back in 2013, we started training for conventional warfare. Everything but the most basic of basics had to be unlearned in order to get our collective heads around this new (that is, old) way of fighting.
Basically, what I happen to have experienced in the military was a vey unconventional approach to warfare (historically speaking).
Take that for whatever it may be worth as it applies (or not) to what would work in SW.
I happen to be pretty set on the notion that SpecForces ought to be proficient in mounted operations and maintain a compliment of military vehicles appropriate to that task. However many are available at a given time is a story factor, not an organizational one. That is, if unit A doesn't have enough speeders to get the Job done, send unit B, who does have enough (or whatever).
Last edited by Naaman on Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | You really only need to include one piece of fluff from Rules of Engagement to support Naaman's concept of Rebel Special Forces. It was a program that was set up by the defected Crix Madine. Being that he was the commander of Imperial Special Forces, it makes sense that he would try to do what Naaman is talking about. Mirroring the best qualities of Imperial Spec Force while giving it the responsible conscience of the Rebellion.
Also, by the timeline in which he defected to the Rebellion, they were steadily on the rise, nearing the time of the operation to Endor. |
That's a good point. One of the things that is influencing my interpretation of SpecForce capabilities is the quote at the biginning of RoE that talks about "in 30 minutes, I can assemble a team of 20 soldiers capable of completing amy mission anywhere in the galaxy" (paraphrased).
I'm still reading about SpecForce and what separates them from the regular troops, trying to make sense of it all. |
I'm right there with you. Then when I took a look at the notable SpecForce Companies, I thought their stats were lackluster. Most were only a few pips better than regular Alliance and maybe half as skilled as Storm Commandos.
Ultimate Infiltrator Company: Sneak 5D...
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:22 am Post subject: |
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I'm still on the wilderness branch, working on the pathfinders. I have set aside a special designation for a highly specialized team of pathfinders (similar to how SEAL team six is "different" than the other teams).
These will be the Pathfinders that report their intel directly to High Command for the purpose of developing large scale operations.
Essentially, they gather the intel on the most difficult to penetrate targets, which have a major impact on the war as a whole, rather than on a battle or sector or system.
The urban side will have infiltrators which are analogous to the wilderness' pathfinders (but with a different skillset and variations on missions). |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Another fun aspect of gameplay is having to acquire transportation near point of insertion.
| CRMcNeill wrote: |
And if you’re looking for visuals, a lot of real-world cars can be converted into SWU Speeders using a few simple steps:1). Remove the wheels.
2). Replace the rear wheels with thruster engine pods.
3). Replace the front wheels with either thruster pods or guidance vanes. |
Good advice. I think a modern Pickup truck turned speeder with an E-Web mounted in the bed would be fantastic.
/adding to list of wanted vehicles.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I read once that the AVERAGE age in the entire US Marine corps was 19 years old. |
That makes sense for recruits. But it makes no sense for the entire corps.
| Naaman wrote: | | Ah, but you evaded my point that the insurgent fighters you mentioned used dirty (as in evil) tactics against a force whose ROE dictates a high level of restraint. Which is the opposite of what is happening in SW. The bad guys are not morally restrained, and the good guys are. |
The intent is that the PCs and most Rebels are the 'good guys.' But there have always been exceptions in the Rebellion. Saw Garrerra being one of the more recent. Cassian Andor gunning down his own contact so his contact can't be captured would be another.
| Naaman wrote: | | Here's what I'm trying to fix about the Rebel SpecForces: they suck. |
Gotta agree with you. Basing them on 15D (or species +3D) instead of 12D is a good correction.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | How about the American Revolution? The Continental Army fought around and among the common citizenry of the Colonies, against a superior enemy, and yet they still ultimately won without resorting to atrocities. |
Civil wars (and revolutions are a civil war) are always messy. Victors tend to write history. I think it is reasonable to assume that not everyone on the revolutionary side (or the Loyalist side for that matter) had clean hands. But the original Star Wars trilogy is clearly space opera with a pretty black and white morality and it fits better with the view of the American Revolution that many of us here in America learned in elementary school.
However, given the vast numbers of Imperial troops and the enormous resources available, it's difficult to justify elite Rebel troops being superior to elite Imperial troops. But I think it makes sense for the elite Rebels to be superior to the typical Imperials. What I think gives the Rebels an edge are four things.
1. Surprise.
2. Flexibility (the Imperial seems highly bureaucratic and ossified).
3. Commitment. Yes Stormtroopers are committed and so are many TIE fighters and capital ship captains, but I think the vast majority of the Imperial forces are not that committed, whereas almost all Rebels are very committed.
4. Cooperation. While Rebels have some challenges cooperating, at the end of the day they work together. The vast majority of Imperial officers are far more concerned with internal politics, service rivalry, and their own promotion than they are with defeating the Rebels. I think most Imperials don't think the Rebels stand a chance, so instead of focusing on defeating the Rebellion, they are focused on one-upping their rivals and furthering their own power, prestige, and career. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | As for budget, both sides ran out of money. But the Americans were willing to fight for free, thus forcing the Brits into a war of attrition, and thereby demoralizing their forces (on top of whatever other complications the Brits were experiencing). |
Fighting a war on the other side of the Atlantic ocean made the war more costly for the British and when you also have to worry about a rival European power that magnifies your logistical challenges. One thing Star Wars Rebels don't have is a rival power to the Empire intervening on their side. The Revolutionary War probably wouldn't have ended when and how it did without France to assist the Colonies and threaten the British at sea and in Europe.
In many ways I think the Rebel Alliance's only real chance of victory was their Hail Mary pass taking out Palpatine on the second Death Star. It seems analogous to the Lord of the Rings where the only real chance of winning was a couple of Hobbits sneaking into Mordor and chucking the Ring into Mt Doom. (And without Gollum/Smeagol that would have failed.) |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for those insights, Bren. 
I tend to agree that in the SW setting, there is no room for grey area with respect to the big picture. If individual groups want to explore some of the more compromising aspects of war, that's another thing. But I think the Rebellion must stand for what is good at each level of command, and the empire must be evil (even if there are "good guys" working for it... like fire fighters, for example).
For this basic reason, I don't really see the value in alluding to what might have gone on unrecorded in history, since we are talking about the black and white, as you said.
Concerning Rogue 1, the grey area saturating the movie is actually, IMO, it's most glaring problem. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and diminished the generally pleasent flavor of Star Wars in general. It just felt like it didn't fit thematically, even if it fit logically.
In essence, I tend to interpret Rogue One as more of a fan fic than actual canon.
As for quantity producing higher quality troops, there is some logic there. But I tend to think that the empire focuses on mass production rather than on quality production. It seems plausible that the best, say, 1000 troops in the Alliance could be better than the best 1000 troops in the empire, but the empire might have another 1,000,000 super elite troops while the Rebels have, say, 100,000.
Does that make sense?
EDIT: the source for my 19-year old average Marine is Dick Couch, author of Chosen Soldier, wherein he compares the average age of a green beret at 32 against "the entire Marine Corps" at 19. It's possible that his number reflects some specific demographic within the Marine Corps (such as infantry, maybe), rather than the entire Corps.
The USMC published a pamphlet with some statistics. The average age for enlisted folk in the Marine Corps as of 2015 is 24 years old. 65% of Marines (including officers) are under 25, and 4% are over 40.
Last edited by Naaman on Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | As for budget, both sides ran out of money. But the Americans were willing to fight for free, thus forcing the Brits into a war of attrition, and thereby demoralizing their forces (on top of whatever other complications the Brits were experiencing). |
Fighting a war on the other side of the Atlantic ocean made the war more costly for the British and when you also have to worry about a rival European power that magnifies your logistical challenges. One thing Star Wars Rebels don't have is a rival power to the Empire intervening on their side. The Revolutionary War probably wouldn't have ended when and how it did without France to assist the Colonies and threaten the British at sea and in Europe.
In many ways I think the Rebel Alliance's only real chance of victory was their Hail Mary pass taking out Palpatine on the second Death Star. It seems analogous to the Lord of the Rings where the only real chance of winning was a couple of Hobbits sneaking into Mordor and chucking the Ring into Mt Doom. (And without Gollum/Smeagol that would have failed.) |
Well, that's what makes Luke so important, isn't it? If it weren't for Luke, it's presumable that the empire would have won during A New Hope (other than the fact that there was a new hope, to begin with).
In that case, it really doesn't matter how SpecForce is organized, since the Alliance, without Luke, is doomed to fail (presumably).
On the other hand, we now have this RPG that let's us play around in the SW universe and contribute to the narrative outside the scope of the films, so there has to be something epic for PCs to do, right? Hence, my attempt to make the SpecForce seem as though they are actually a competent military organization with reasonably intelligent leaders who know how to organize a fighting force. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16400
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Civil wars (and revolutions are a civil war) are always messy. Victors tend to write history. I think it is reasonable to assume that not everyone on the revolutionary side (or the Loyalist side for that matter) had clean hands. |
There is a substantive difference in kind between atrocities that occur as a byproduct of war and those that occur as a conscious policy decision by the leadership.
The point I’m aiming at is that insurgencies do work, and don’t have to engage in war crimes as a deliberate policy choice in order to do so.
| Quote: | | What I think gives the Rebels an edge are four things. |
I would add a fifth point to this: Concealment. The Empire, for all its power, has great difficulty actually locating a substantive Alliance force or installation to attack. The Alliance, in turn, plays this for all it can, operating dispersed from secret bases, so as to deny the Empire a target to which its considerable force can be brought to bear.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Noone is arguing that insurgencies don't/can't work. My position is that this project is about a professional military force that is supposed to be a collection of elite fighting elements... one might say they are the "exception that proves the rule." |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| I've added some additional details and equipment to the snipers and pathfinders, as well as added another element, the Strategic Reconnaissance Detachment. This element represents the very best soldiers in the Alliance, and is an appropriate assignment for an experienced Rebel PC. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
I would suggest reading more of the RASB, then. Each and every chapter makes it clear that the Alliance is operating at a huge deficit of equipment, material and funds, and that much of their equipment is rag-tag, second-hand and/or out-of-date. Apart from being well-motivated, the main advantages that they bring to the fight would be more appropriately defined as weaknesses in their opponent. |
I've been searching for days for my RASB. Finally found it hiding in plane sight.... 
Here are some quotes from the book about the SpecForces:
| RASB wrote: | ...Special Force troopers are the finest soldiers in the Alliance -- and quite probably, the galaxy.
These superbly trained, fully-equipped soldiers are capable of handling a tremendous variety of missions. |
| RASB wrote: | | SpecForce troopers are trained to go anywhere, use any equipment, and succeed at any assignment. |
| RASB wrote: | | ...SpecForce soldiers are organized into Task Forces, consisting of as many soldiers and as much equipment as is necessary to complete the job. |
According to RASB, Special Forces falls under Fleet Command, which is necessarily mobile. The Sector Forces fall under Sector Command, which is static, and must make use of whatever resistance forces are available when a planet or system joins the Alliance. It seems like your overall interpretation of RASB may be a little off when it comes to what SpecForces do (and their equipment and capabilities) versus what SECForces do (as a rag-tag army, essentially). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16400
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Okay...
I’m out on the road at the moment, so I can’t reply in detail. Short version; you’re cherry-picking quotes and then taking them out of context. Once I have the time, I can provide plenty of other quotes from the RASB and RoE to the effect of how limited the Alliance is from a material and equipment standpoint. And “fully equipped” and “as much as necessary” should be viewed within the context of the Alliance as a whole, so those phrases will not mean the same in universe as they might in the US Special Forces community.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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