Skills.

[cheshire]

[Tupteq]

I have one note here - there's no relation between base skill and it's specialization while improving of one of them, SWRPG 2nd R&E says: "Specializations are separate skills. If a character improves basic skill, the specialization doesn't improve; if the specialization is improved, the basic skill doesn't go up."
I think it's not honest solution. IMO base skill improvement should affect specialization somehow (especially if one value is close to other).
WEG D6 Space v.2.0 (I bought a book and I'm very proud of it ) says: "Specializations that are associated with full skill improve when the base skill improves" (full skill = skill value > attribute). But this solution is too extremal for me (makes place for misuses).
I have unofficial rules for this situation, I'll publish them soon, but in other thread (in proper forum).

[Ankhanu]

Yeah, it never made sense to me that a basic skill could have a higher value than a specialization

[PsiberDragon]

Actually, another thing that didn't make sense to me was that, IIRC, you could only have ONE specialization per skill....

So, you could have Blaster: Pistol or Blaster: Rifle, but not both...

THere's a certain amount of sense, in that you wouldn't want your characters to have specializations in EVERYTHING, but I thought that only ONE specialization seemed a little... off.
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[Ankhanu]

I *think* that may be a misconception... but I could be wrong.

[garhkal]

[Grimace]

I think some people are getting slightly confused about how Specializations add. (Or who knows, maybe I'm confused and am about to show you a completely wrong way of doing it). I'll show some demonstrations of how I run specializations.

Bob
Attribute: DEX 3D
Skill: Blaster 2D
Specialization: Heavy Blaster Pistol 1D

When Bob picks up a Blaster and shoots it, he rolls 5D.
When Bob picks up a Heavy Blaster Pistol and shoots it, he rolld 6D

Now, Bob wants to get better.

Bob increases the Blaster skill by 1D. Bob now has
Attribute: DEX 3D
Skill: Blaster 3D
Specialization: Heavy Blaster Pistol 1D

When Bob picks up a Blaster and shoots now, he rolls 6D
When he picks up Heavy Blaster Pistol and shoots, he rolls 7D

Note that in order to raise his totals like that he would have to have spent more CPs because he raised his skill.

If he wanted to spend less CPs, he could have got the same effect with the Heavy Blaster Pistol by increasing his Specialization only. That would have given him

Attribute: DEX 3D
Skill: Blaster 2D
Specialization: Heavy Blaster Pistol 2D

So when Bob picked up a Blaster he would roll 5D to hit.
When he picked up a Heavy Blaster pistol he would roll 7D to hit.

So, as you can see, even if your base skill is higher in D than the Specialization, (in this case, the Blaster at 2D initially and the Specialization at 1D), you still roll more dice when you use the item you're specialized in.

Raising your specialization will increase the likelyhood of you successfully using that type of item, but it doesn't help in the overall use of the skill. In the third example, Bob rolls 7D when using the Heavy Blaster Pistol, which is more than his original 6D in it, but his regular Blaster skill is still at 5D. So if Bob ever finds himself without a Heavy Blaster Pistol, he's not going to be nearly as skilled. Buying the specialization will be much cheaper though.

Raising the skill will give the same overall benefit, boosting the roll for Heavy Blaster Pistol up to 7D, but it also boosts the Blaster skill (say for a holdout blaster or blaster rifle) up to 6D. It costs more CPs to do that though.

The reason why, I believe, they were limiting the Specializations to 1 per skill, is due to how they were envisioning the Specialization. Basically, they're assuming that the character (Bob) is devoting all of his time, knowledge, and energy, to get better in the specialized item (Heavy Blaster Pistol). It would be hard to say "Well, he's also devoting the same amount of time, knowledge and energy to ANOTHER weapon in the same category...learning it equally as thoroughly as the first one". That would be like a gunsmith being so heavily involved in crafting a specific gun, learning all of the ins-and-outs of it, making very good items from it, and then saying he can devote the same amount in making a DIFFERENT specific gun. His overall skill is what allows the different weapons to be made, but a specialization should be just that...special. One thing only.

Of course, everyone has different ways of thinking of things, but that's how I work my specializations and why I only allow one per skill.

[vong]

ummm, i dont think specializations stack with the skill

Bob
Dex 3D
Blaster 5D
Heavy BP 7D

so your dex is 3d, your blaster skill is 5d, and you pick up a HBP you only use 7D

that is how i do it atleast

there has to be some disadvantage to spending specializations before upgrading the base skill ...
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[Tupteq]

Grimace, I think you are completely wrong. Rules say that skill starts from level of attribute and specializations start from skill level (or attribute if no skill).
Also, I haven't seen a note that only one specialization per skill is allowed. Furthermore, description of scholar skill says, that only specializations can be taken for scholar. Also, we can see more than one specialization per skill in many stats from WEG books.

[cunning_kindred]

In the original rules you could take as many specializations as you like. I'm quite sure of this. I played Wing-Ripper in the original WEG boxset Darkstryder stuff - a character they wrote and she comes pre-written with two specializations of Starfighter Piloting.

When you first purchase a skill it starts at attribute rating. When you first purchase a specialization it starts at skill rating. There is no point purchasing more than one specialization for this reason. At only half cost each two specializations would cost the same as increasing the base skill but grant a benefit in only two narrowly-defined areas.

Increasing the base skill after purchasing the specialization does not effect the specialization so you could end up with a spec. less than the base skill but than there wouldn't be any point listing the spec. any more.

This is, of course, a little silly. It was one of the rules we changed. Not only did the current rules mean you can't increase a skill after purchasing a specialization without loosing character points but we also had a problem with increasing an attribute after purchasing a large increase in your skill (and thereby getting a cost-break).

We therefore implented a rule where all skills and specializations started at 0D+1 and increased separately. When rolling you add together your attribute, skill and specialization to get the dice pool (converting any left over +3 or higher into full dice). We changed the costs to increase things to compensate to the number before the D x4 for skill and x2 for specializations and allowed any number of specializations. This produces approximately the same dice codes for the same character point expenditure but allows more freedom to specialize as the player wants.

It worked for us anyway.

[Ankhanu]

I was looking through 2nd Ed. and R&E and see no indication that there is a limit on how many specializations one can have for a parent skill. Of course, there is a limit based on simple economics and common sense; it just becomes more expensive as you have more specializations.

[Grimace]

Well, what I suggested might be "wrong", as I said, but I have NEVER had any of the problems that you guys are complaining about. Not one. And I do it as I explained. So tell me what's better; using the official rules and having problems and inconsistancies, or using it the way I suggested and not having any problems at all?

[vong]

he has a point. if you give the characters extra powers, they will be less likely to cheat
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[masque]

I see Grimace's way as wrong, but unlike the rest, I have no problem with the base skill overtaking the specialization. The way I see it, a specialization is basically something to take that grants you a narrowly defined edge. Beginning characters of mine almost always take one of their skill dice and break it up into 3 specializations. It's a no brainer to up that base blaster skill a full D while using a blaster pistol, for instance.

However, the trick of specializations is that after that it becomes a regular skill, for purposes of improvement. Character points are the mechanical way of tracking the training one puts into their skills. When you spend points to improve your skills, it shows that you are practicing that skill. If you keep putting character points into your specialization, it reflects the fact that you are spending extra time to be better with that weapon (or whatever) than you are with other types. If you neglect the specialization, and put your character points into improving the base skill instead, it just means that you are spending your time training on a wider variety of weapons, instead of just the one.

Therefore, I have no problem with a character getting to the point where their base skill catches up to their specialization. The way I approach that is that since it is a specialization of the base skill, I rule in my games that it can't be lower than the base skill. Therefore, if your base Blaster skill of 6D catches up to the Blaster Pistol specialization of 7D, both skills end up being 7D, and if the base Blaster skill goes higher, the pistol spec. rises with it. I keep the specialization on the character sheet, so that the character can choose to bring the specialization back up in the future if he likes, but I see no need for the specialization to automatically rise to stay HIGHER than the base skill, if the player hasn't chosen to spend the points to keep it that way.
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[Gry Sarth]

Well, Grimace, the only thing about your post being "wrong" is that you wrote it as if that was the official rules. Sure, it's a very reasonable House Rule, and one I'm sure many people use. Quite likely it works better than the official rules. However as far as the official rules are concerned, you do handle specializations the wrong way.

And I agree with masque, the official rules do make sense, regarding skills catching up to specializations. If you don't practice your specialization, but keep on improving the general skill, eventually you won't feel a difference between using either.
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