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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Alternative rules for turning bad.. |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | I never liked the randomness in turning to the dark side. One misdoing and one might turn to a slave to the dark side...so;
Here are some alternative rules for turning to the Dark Side.
-You always turn to the Dark Side when you have 6 DSPs, never before.
(This might seem like a huge benefit compared to the RAW, but take the following into consideration.)
-From the point the character has at least 1 DSP the Dark Side will try to influence the characters behaviour. This will at first small things, like making the character use unneccesary force and cause pain. As the DSPs increase the urges will be stronger and will change to real atrocities.
-Character might fight these urges using either Willpower or Control. If control is used, subtract 1D for each DSP. If Willpower is used, subtract 1D for each two DSPs. The GM might add or subtract Dice depending on how the character is behaving (ie, player choices).
-The 'will' of the Dark Side is a number or D's equal to the number of DSB the character has +1. For example, for a character with 3 DSPs the Will of the Dark Side is 4D. The GM might add Dice if in proximity to either a place tainted with the Dark Side, or agents of the Dark Side (ie Sith, Dark Jedi).
-If the Will of the Dark Side rolls higher than the resisting character the nefarious deed is performed. This might result in another DSP.
Note: This easily turns into a snowball effect if the character is not careful. This is of course intentional.
I know this isnt House Rules, but I couldnt resist pitching this as the Dark Side was discussed.. |
I do kind of like the Dark Side influence idea... I'd have to mull over the mechanic to see if it really works, but the concept is certainly solid.
I am, however, with Gry on the fixed number issue. Sure, atoning isn't easy and all that jazz, but the fact of the matter is, the player has a guaranteed 5 levels of evil to play with before they are lost. I like the random element, it shows just how dangerous the dark side is and how quickly it's corruption can destroy a person. It makes you consider your evil choices that much harder. |
Please do not focus on the fixed number.
Instead of a 'fluid' number, we have 'fluid' behaviour. Sure, you only turn at 6 DSPs, but how quick you get to that point is no longer completely under your control. You cant safely go even to 2 DSP, as that will mean that the Will of the Dark Side will be at 3D. You will resist either with Control -2D or Willpower -1D. Throw in wild dice in there and you will find yourself committing evil without even thinking about it, hastening your progress towards the dark side. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I guess it all depends on how evil your GM is...........
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Alternative rules for turning bad.. |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Please do not focus on the fixed number.
Instead of a 'fluid' number, we have 'fluid' behaviour. Sure, you only turn at 6 DSPs, but how quick you get to that point is no longer completely under your control. You cant safely go even to 2 DSP, as that will mean that the Will of the Dark Side will be at 3D. You will resist either with Control -2D or Willpower -1D. Throw in wild dice in there and you will find yourself committing evil without even thinking about it, hastening your progress towards the dark side. |
Why not have fluid behaviour AND a fluid turning point? Double the risk! The point of our issue with the fixed number is the safety net effect it creates. With a dynamic turning point, a player never knows when their character might fall when they commit evil; it makes evil a much more insidious concept with real potential consequence. With a fixed number, sure, using your rule system of temptation it makes some things a bit harder, but they know that even if they gain a couple more points, all is not lost until they hit 6. atgxtg's D&D falling damage simile is pretty apt.
Really, with a good GM, how quickly you gain DSPs should never be completely under the players' control. Particularly with Force sensitives and Jedi, the GM should be constantly be finding ways to tempt and subvert the characters' actions; placing them in situations where sacrifices must be made to do the right thing... this is an important element of the Star Wars mythos, and one that is rarely portrayed very well (I'm not particularly good at it myself).
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative rules for turning bad.. |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | Please do not focus on the fixed number.
Instead of a 'fluid' number, we have 'fluid' behaviour. Sure, you only turn at 6 DSPs, but how quick you get to that point is no longer completely under your control. You cant safely go even to 2 DSP, as that will mean that the Will of the Dark Side will be at 3D. You will resist either with Control -2D or Willpower -1D. Throw in wild dice in there and you will find yourself committing evil without even thinking about it, hastening your progress towards the dark side. |
Why not have fluid behaviour AND a fluid turning point? Double the risk! The point of our issue with the fixed number is the safety net effect it creates. With a dynamic turning point, a player never knows when their character might fall when they commit evil; it makes evil a much more insidious concept with real potential consequence. With a fixed number, sure, using your rule system of temptation it makes some things a bit harder, but they know that even if they gain a couple more points, all is not lost until they hit 6. atgxtg's D&D falling damage simile is pretty apt.
Really, with a good GM, how quickly you gain DSPs should never be completely under the players' control. Particularly with Force sensitives and Jedi, the GM should be constantly be finding ways to tempt and subvert the characters' actions; placing them in situations where sacrifices must be made to do the right thing... this is an important element of the Star Wars mythos, and one that is rarely portrayed very well (I'm not particularly good at it myself). |
I dont have a problem with the 'random turning' in itself actually. Its just the RAW mechanic thats really, really boring IMO. It feels like someone remebered they forgot a mechanic for turning to the Dark Side just before the game was to be sent to the printer and just slapped on the 'fluke die'.. 
If one is to turn at two DSP we need more detailed rule for what happens when you turn. Its just not plausible that you become an agent of evil with so 'little' evil commited. You might queston wether the character is 'worthy' of the dark side at two DSPs.
Another idea is to roll two dice instead of one. If you roll equal to your DSP or less you turn. Combine this with the Will of the Dark Side mechanic and you have the best of two worlds. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative rules for turning bad.. |
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| Ankhanu wrote: |
Really, with a good GM, how quickly you gain DSPs should never be completely under the players' control. Particularly with Force sensitives and Jedi, the GM should be constantly be finding ways to tempt and subvert the characters' actions; placing them in situations where sacrifices must be made to do the right thing... this is an important element of the Star Wars mythos, and one that is rarely portrayed very well (I'm not particularly good at it myself). |
-But this is allready in the game, plots to tempt and subvert the character. Most of my player are suckers for temptation. We recently played 'Skavenger Hunt' where you find a lightsaber in Darth Vaders personal chambers. I made this lightsaber an old Sith artifact, which the player of course could not resist picking up. This indirectly led to a new DSP from a Will of the Dark Side test as the lightsaber enhanced the WDS.
-The Will of the Dark Side (WDS) is of course in addition to the 'usual' tricks of the GM. The mechanic can actually take control of the character at cruicial points. In that sense it replaces the 'shake and bake' fluke turning of the RAW with a downward spiral that ends in the character turning to the Dark Side.
-I think I will actually replace the 'turn at 6 DSP' with rolling 2 dice vs current DSP. Its a good combination. |
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Draylo Star
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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Location: Auburn California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative rules for turning bad.. |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: |
I think I will actually replace the 'turn at 6 DSP' with rolling 2 dice vs current DSP. Its a good combination. |
I really like this idea for turning to the darkside |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, turning to the Dark Side should be an opportunity for dramatic storytelling. Not a lesson in dice rolls or mechanics. If the mechanic gets in the way of the story, ignore it.
The mechanic is there to help with telling the story, not the other way around.
I think you guys are missing the point. DSPs are not there so you can say "how much evil can I do before I turn to the Dark Side?" The mechanic is there to show the temptation and slow, downward spiral a person can make when they succomb to their evil natures.
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Draylo Star
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I guess my problem is that 6 is real quick and it seems like the characters from other Star Wars stories would long of been consumed.
What about calling on the darkside and the dice roll that can take your character right there to the darkside on a dice roll? |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Draylo Star wrote: | I guess my problem is that 6 is real quick and it seems like the characters from other Star Wars stories would long of been consumed.
What about calling on the darkside and the dice roll that can take your character right there to the darkside on a dice roll? |
Just remember what happens when you cross over to the Dark Side... the GM takes your character and it becomes an evil NPC. If you, your GM and the rest of your players think it would make for an amazing story, go for it!
It's always best to discuss this sort of thing with your GM and set expectations early in the game. Some of the best NPC villains I've seen were former PCs who turned to the Dark Side. The player had to roll up a new PC and even attempted to convert his old PC back to the Light. It made for a really compelling story.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | Honestly, turning to the Dark Side should be an opportunity for dramatic storytelling. Not a lesson in dice rolls or mechanics. If the mechanic gets in the way of the story, ignore it.
The mechanic is there to help with telling the story, not the other way around.
I think you guys are missing the point. DSPs are not there so you can say "how much evil can I do before I turn to the Dark Side?" The mechanic is there to show the temptation and slow, downward spiral a person can make when they succomb to their evil natures. |
Exactly. But an established mechanic (which the player wont know the details of, you just ask the player to roll either willpower or control) enhances the feeling that matters are slipping out of the characters hand... This is of course role played, not just stated; 'you failed your resistance test, please add a DSP as you kill the innocent bystander'.
But each to his own and all that. If the 'fluke die' suits some people of course they should keep it. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | I think you guys are missing the point. DSPs are not there so you can say "how much evil can I do before I turn to the Dark Side?" The mechanic is there to show the temptation and slow, downward spiral a person can make when they succomb to their evil natures. |
In that case the mechanic does a lousy job. There is no slow spirial. Characters don't slip slowly into temptation. The way it works (as opposed to what was intended) is that the character is a good guy one minute, and the next minute he is suddenly corrupted and turns to evil.
However, this does emulate Anakin's transformation all too well. Sadly.
The problem is, there really is no temptation from the Dark Side. It just a penalty when a PC screws ups. About the only time I've seen a PC serious;y tempted to earn a DSP during an adventure was when I ran Jar Jar Binks as a NPC and said, "Hey, it's only one Dark Side point."
Or it game terms:
1) It's not quicker. You got to spend the same time and XP like the good guys.
2) It's not easier. You got to spend the same time and XP like the good guys.
3) It's not more seductive. It's just a die roll.
But oddly,
It is stronger, since it grants bonus dice!
I'm thinking it could be more interesting if, instead of the current method, DSPs counted as extra pips to the force skills. So 1 DSP would grant +1pip to Control, Sense and Alter.
And give some new powers. "Free of charge".
I don't think that Anakin really took time out to learn Injure/Kill after wiping out the Jedi temple so he would have it on hand to use on Padme. I think it was just a perk for earning some DSPs. |
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Gry Sarth
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Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I think people are forgetting that the "fluke die" is not the only Dark Side mechanic in the game. Let me repost:
When a Jedi with DSP attempts to use the Force, he receives a bonus to his Force Skills equal to the amount of DSP he has (2 DSP = +2D). However, his actions are then under a much stricter scrutiny, and unless they are undoubtedly good and pure, he gets another DSP. The Jedi may chose to refuse this Dark Side bonus, but in this case all difficulties for Force use should be increased by at least one level.
This does make it easier and more seductive. Accepting the caal of the Dark Side is beneficial to the player and rejecting it is a chore. If you use this as a roleplaying aid, you should get great temptation scenes.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | I think people are forgetting that the "fluke die" is not the only Dark Side mechanic in the game. |
No, but Im talking about the mechanism for turning to the dark side, not bonuses and rp 'penalties' which are still there if you change the mechanism for turning. Its the 'fluke die' mechanism Im not satisfied with, the rp issues are perfectly all right...
Ok, what bothers me also is the transition from 'Light Side having DSP' to 'Dark Side' when it comes to bonuses to Force Skills. That the quick and easy way suddenly disappears seems a bit strange. But thats another discussion. |
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