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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | No it doesn't. it just means that every living thing is connected to the Force -which it should be. Note that I'm not letting characters get any Force skills or powers just because they have 1D in the Force. That's what training is for. |
That overly complicates things, AFAIAC. Under the RAW, a person who checked "no" under Force Sensitive wasn't cut off from the Force; they just lacked the ability to consciously use it. Also under the RAW, if a person has even 1D under an attribute, they have the potential to learn skills under that attribute. I don't feel like making a special exception for a Force attribute by saying that just because you have 1D you still can't learn Force skills; better to subject it to the same rules as all the other attributes and skills. Far easier to say that all living beings are connected to the Force in some fashion, regardless of whether they have 0D Force or a 7D Force. There are already rules for converting non-Force Sensitive to Force Sensitive; I'd just convert them so that when you spend the CP to go from Non-FS to FS, your Force attribute jumps from 0D to 1D.
EDIT: Just to make sure, I went back looking for the RAW I cited that having a 0D would prevent you from learning skills, and I can't find it. However, in my search, I found another option. As a rule, creature stats don't include Knowledge, Mechanical or Technical skills, which means that they lack the ability to perform those skills. With that as a precedent in the RAW, I would suggest the following:
-Rather than a 0D meaning a person is not FS, characters who aren't Force Sensitive simply don't have a Force Attribute. Use a hash mark or an x in place of a die code on the character sheet to indicate it as such.
-When a character pays the CP cost to transition from non-FS to FS, replace the "no" mark with 1D.
-In all other respects, treat Force as a normal attribute.
Quote: | Frankly, I don't believe in "Force Senstive" anyway. There is nothing in the films about it. Some characters are noted for being "strong with the Force". |
Force Sensitive is just a game technique used to express the same concept.
Quote: | That might be your idea behind a Force attribute. My idea is to measure the character's strength in the Force, and all living beings should possess some rating in the Force, even if it is only 1 pip. |
See my above. Giving "normals" any sort of rating above 1D opens the possibility (per the RAW) of learning Force skills.
Quote: | No. Otherwise Jedi become too powerful to affect each other with the Force, since everything else being about equal they will have an extra 2D to their resistance (their PER score) added to the base difficulty plus the modifiers for proximity/relationship, etc.[/i] |
Okay, I can agree with that. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="crmcneill"] atgxtg wrote: |
That overly complicates things, AFAIAC. Under the RAW, a person who checked "no" under Force Sensitive wasn't cut off from the Force; they just lacked the ability to consciously use it. Also under the RAW, if a person has even 1D under an attribute, they have the potential to learn skills under that attribute. I don't feel like making a special exception for a Force attribute by saying that just because you have 1D you still can't learn Force skills; better to subject it to the same rules as all the other attributes and skills. Far easier to say that all living beings are connected to the Force in some fashion, regardless of whether they have 0D Force or a 7D Force. There are already rules for converting non-Force Sensitive to Force Sensitive; I'd just convert them so that when you spend the CP to go from Non-FS to FS, your Force attribute jumps from 0D to 1D. |
First off, I think the RAW overly complicates things by using attributes for everything except Force skills.
Secondly, I never said those with 1D in the Force attribute cannot learn Force skills. I said that they require training to use the Force.
Quote: |
Force Sensitive is just a game technique used to express the same concept. |
But it doesn't. As far as the RAW goes there is no "strong witht the Force". Force Senstive just acts as a switch to tell who can learn Force Skills and who cannot. As far as the RAW goes strength with the Force is tied to Force Skills, FPs and CPs.
Quote: |
See my above. Giving "normals" any sort of rating above 1D opens the possibility (per the RAW) of learning Force skills. |
Sure, and I have no problem with their having the possibility. They always had it. In the RAW anyone could buy Force Sensitivity. And also in the RAW there are some skills that require prerequisites (advanced skills) or that apply a penalty if used untrained (swoop operation). Also, per the RAW, even someone with a high die code in a Force skill can't just use any Force Power. He has to be trained, or go through the study process.
Really, starting with an attribute a 1D doesn't turn everybody into a Jedi. By the RAW anybody could spend the Cp to become Force Sensitive and start working on their Force skills, yet most character's don't and even with a 1D attribute most still won't. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Secondly, I never said those with 1D in the Force attribute cannot learn Force skills. I said that they require training to use the Force. |
So basically you are saying that you will allow anyone and everyone to have the potential to learn Force skills right off the bat? If so, that diverges quite sharply from Star Wars as I understand it.
Quote: | But it doesn't. As far as the RAW goes there is no "strong witht the Force". Force Senstive just acts as a switch to tell who can learn Force Skills and who cannot. |
AFAIAC, the only thing we are doing with the Force Attribute is changing the Force Sensitive line on the template from "No/Yes" to "No/How Much". As I understand it, Force Sensitive indicates whether or not a person has the ability to use the Force in a conscious manner, as opposed to the instinctive manner allowed by CPs and FPs.
Quote: | Really, starting with an attribute a 1D doesn't turn everybody into a Jedi. By the RAW anybody could spend the Cp to become Force Sensitive and start working on their Force skills, yet most character's don't and even with a 1D attribute most still won't. |
And yet, under the rules for learning new skills, any character with a 1D or more (which by your definition is everyone) could pop into the local Jedi temple, find a trainer, and start consciously using the Force within a few weeks or months. If everyone had this potential, why would the Jedi have needed to take infants away from their children across the entire galaxy when they could've just picked up the galaxy orphans and given them training? If characters can be built up to powerful Jedi from starting Force skills of 1D or 2D (per the RAW), then there is nothing to differentiate potential Jedi from everyone else if everyone starts at 1D or 2D.
Sorry, but if this is the route you insist on taking, I won't be following; you are making Force skills and abilities available to a far, far wider percentage of the populace than any film or EU material says that it should be. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: |
So basically you are saying that you will allow anyone and everyone to have the potential to learn Force skills right off the bat? If so, that diverges quite sharply from Star Wars as I understand it. |
Really? Where in the films did anyone ever say that most people cannot learn to use the Force? The way I understand it, some people were just stronger in the Force than others.
Quote: | AFAIAC, the only thing we are doing with the Force Attribute is changing the Force Sensitive line on the template from "No/Yes" to "No/How Much". |
Oh, it's more than "No/How Much". It's a pretty big change, since it will greatly strength starting PC Jedi. In theory, we could see PCs starting off with 5-6D in their Force skills, as opposed to 3D.
Quote: | As I understand it, Force Sensitive indicates whether or not a person has the ability to use the Force in a conscious manner, as opposed to the instinctive manner allowed by CPs and FPs. |
How so? According to the RAW, being Force Senstive doesn't in an ofitsef give a character the ability to use the Force in anyway that he couldn't before. He doesn't get any Force skills or Powers. All he gets in an extra FP (that he piad for with CPs).
Quote: |
And yet, under the rules for learning new skills, any character with a 1D or more (which by your definition is everyone) could pop into the local Jedi temple, find a trainer, and start consciously using the Force within a few weeks or months. |
Not if you are following all the restriction in the films. First off, the Jedi won't want to train anyone who is an adult, since they have to much they need to unlearn before they could safely use the Force. Secondly, even then, the Jedi seem very picky about who they train.
I think the whole train from infancy shows that the ability to use the Force isn't as rare as you are claiming. The Jedi can choose to be picky. They can even choose to adopt a way of life that pretty much ensures that Force strong bloodlines die out.
Quote: |
If everyone had this potential, why would the Jedi have needed to take infants away from their children across the entire galaxy when they could've just picked up the galaxy orphans and given them training? If characters can be built up to powerful Jedi from starting Force skills of 1D or 2D (per the RAW), then there is nothing to differentiate potential Jedi from everyone else if everyone starts at 1D or 2D. |
Because the Jedi were looking for those who had the best natural ability. Look at it this way: in real life anybody can learn to play the piano, try to write a novel, learn to high jump, learn how to play basketball, and so on. Yet not everyone get's picked to become a concert pianist, a prize winning novelist, an Olympic athlete, or be a star in the NBA. It's the same thing.
Now if we want to be completely realistic for a moment, it probably gets progressively harder to improve a skill based on natural ability, but d6 doesn't do that.
Quote: |
Sorry, but if this is the route you insist on taking, I won't be following; you are making Force skills and abilities available to a far, far wider percentage of the populace than any film or EU material says that it should be. |
Well, that's your choice. These are houserules. But I really don't see your argument. By RAW any character, baring a handful of species, could, at any time,s pend the CP to become Force Sensitive. So the door is wide open. Adding an attribute at 1D or 2D doesn't change that. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Where in the films did anyone ever say that most people cannot learn to use the Force? The way I understand it, some people were just stronger in the Force than others. |
How about where even when characters were selected as infants to become potential Jedi, the majority of them just ended up being shunted aside into the service corps? Sure, per the RAW, any character can potentially become a Force Sensitive, but it requires an expenditure of 20 CP if done after character creation. When using the existing method for learning and improving skills, what you are proposing would allow even the lowest level NPC to immediately learn and begin improving Force skills and abilities. What is so special about Force skills and the Jedi if everyone could do it?
Quote: | Oh, it's more than "No/How Much". It's a pretty big change, since it will greatly strength starting PC Jedi. In theory, we could see PCs starting off with 5-6D in their Force skills, as opposed to 3D. |
Well then allow the GM to put arbitrary caps in place that limit the skill level of starting characters to a certain amount if its an issue. Personally, I think Jedi characters should have had starting dice levels like this all along, as the difficulty levels for some of the abilities (even the basic ones) are well beyond the range of starting FS characters.
Quote: | According to the RAW, being Force Senstive doesn't in an ofitsef give a character the ability to use the Force in anyway that he couldn't before. He doesn't get any Force skills or Powers. All he gets in an extra FP (that he piad for with CPs). |
Huh? I have never ever either run a game or played in one that allowed non-FS to learn Force skills and abilities. Being Force Sensitive was always a prerequisite to learning and using them. If the RAW left that out, then it is a major error as far as I am concerned. If this were truly the case in the SWU, it would be overrun with Force use, rather than having it be practiced by an elite few (which is the way it is in the films).
SWRPG 2R&E, page 32 wrote: | Force skills are very unusual, so a character needs a very good reason to start the game with them. You must also get permission from the GM to have a force using character. |
Quote: | But I really don't see your argument. By RAW any character, baring a handful of species, could, at any time,s pend the CP to become Force Sensitive. So the door is wide open. Adding an attribute at 1D or 2D doesn't change that. |
And that presumes that CPs are easy to earn for the average populace. Per the rules, CPs are only picked up by adventuring. How much adventuring does the average office drone get to do? CPs are representative of challenges overcome, goals accomplished, life lessons learned and so on and so forth, and most people don't get to experience those kinds of eye opening moments. You can't just walk down to the corner store and buy CPs; they have to be earned the hard way, and 99% of life in the SWU will never get far enough to do more than add a couple D to a few pertinent skills. Giving everyone a starting of 1D or 2D automatically clears a major hurdle for potential Force Users.
In the SWU, the Force is rare even during the prequels. Most people could go their entire lives without ever meeting a Jedi. What you're suggesting would make the Force more common than magic in a Harry Potter novel, and that doesn't sound like Star Wars to me. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:48 am Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Where in the films did anyone ever say that most people cannot learn to use the Force? The way I understand it, some people were just stronger in the Force than others. |
LEIA: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I--I don't understand and could never have.
LUKE: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have.
Yes, there is much talk of being strong in the Force in the films, but the above dialogue is one part that strongly indicates the "you have it or you don't" aspect of Force sensitivity. Leia, not realizing she was Force-sensitive, did not even believe that she could ever have the power to use the Force. This doesn't jive with the idea that most people could learn to use the Force. Leia said never. Luke said "You have that power too." Yes or No.
In WEG SW 1E, you couldn't spend skill points to gain Force-sensitivity after play began. You either had a character that started with Force skills or you didn't.
The prequels did not change that at all. Although Anakin, who was believed by some to be the Chosen One was described as being strong in the Force, he was also described as just having the power to use the Force, and that he would have been identified as a Jedi candidate early. "Identified" also sounds like yes or no.
Shmi: "He knows nothing of greed. He has..."
Qui-Gon: "He has special powers."
Shmi: "Yes."
Qui-Gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."
Shmi: "He deserves better than a slave's life."
Qui-Gon: "Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early.
In my SWU, the Force being "strong" in someone does not even necessarily require Force-sensitivity. In game terms, being strong in the Force could mean having a lot of CPs and especially FPs. I view Han Solo and Padme as "strong in the Force", but not Force-sensitive.
But again, to each his own. _________________ *
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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That's cool guys. It's not like I'm Darth Mutatous out to coerce everything to my way of thinking. 8) 8)
If you don't want to see your loved ones again, that's your call.
But one idea I had that would work with a Force Attribute, no matter what the default is, would be if the bonus you got from a Force Power were tied to the attribute rating.
You would still need to make the skill roll, but how much of a bonus you got would be tied to the actual Force attribute in some way. Probably equal to it, but I could see it being 1/2 the FCE stat for a marginal success, and maybe every 2 or 3 times it for a outstanding success.
That would help to explain why someone like Anakin was so important. He might have had twice the FCE rating of a normal Jedi, and so got a more powerful result, when he succeeded.
And for those of who who feel that Joe average has a 0D FCE attribute, then this works out fine. Even if he somehow makes some sort of roll, he'd still get a 0D bonus. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Could you flesh this concept out a little? Not sure I'm seeing it fully. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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First off, let me just say that I'm not taking either 'side' in this debate, as I can see good points for both.
crmcneill wrote: | Quote: | According to the RAW, being Force Senstive doesn't in an ofitsef give a character the ability to use the Force in anyway that he couldn't before. He doesn't get any Force skills or Powers. All he gets in an extra FP (that he piad for with CPs). |
Huh? I have never ever either run a game or played in one that allowed non-FS to learn Force skills and abilities. Being Force Sensitive was always a prerequisite to learning and using them. If the RAW left that out, then it is a major error as far as I am concerned. If this were truly the case in the SWU, it would be overrun with Force use, rather than having it be practiced by an elite few (which is the way it is in the films). |
crmcneill, I am pretty sure you are not seeing what was said here clearly. atgxtg said "Apples are red" and you countered with "But when you said that oranges are orange, you missed that bananas are yellow!". at said that being "Force Sensitive" doesn't in and of itself (in the rules) give a character Force Skills. In other words, if - at character creation - I check the Force Sensitive" box (with GM approval), my character doesn't get the ability to 'Affect Mind' for free. Nor does he suddenly have the ability to use Alter to change a die roll, for instance. Your response about characters needing to be FS to learn and use Force skills, powers, and abilities is something completely different than what was said (that you quoted).
Whill wrote: | In my SWU, the Force being "strong" in someone does not even necessarily require Force-sensitivity. In game terms, being strong in the Force could mean having a lot of CPs and especially FPs. I view Han Solo and Padme as "strong in the Force", but not Force-sensitive. |
FWIW, the Decipher CCG (which is more 'official' than Wookieepedia, being as everything had to be approved directly by Lucasflim) had to come up with hard and fast numbers for all characters. In other words, they couldn't just have a box that showed whether somebody was Force Sensitive or not (well, they could have, but that wouldn't have fit the game as well). The bar for somebody being "Force Sensitive" was a score of 4 in a stat called "Ability" (all characters had two main stats: Power and Ability). Luke (even as a farmboy) started out with a 4 (thus Force Sensitive), while Leia and Han had a "3" (the definition of that being "Force Attuned").
Somewhat falling in line with atgxtg's way of doing things, ALL characters had at least an Ability of 1, suggesting at least the potential to learn to control the Force (in fact, it was even possible for Yoda to train up, say, Figrin D'an to become a Jedi). It would be impossible to do this with droids, who all had an Ability of 0. _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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DougRed4 wrote: | First off, let me just say that I'm not taking either 'side' in this debate, as I can see good points for both.
crmcneill wrote: | Quote: | According to the RAW, being Force Senstive doesn't in an ofitsef give a character the ability to use the Force in anyway that he couldn't before. He doesn't get any Force skills or Powers. All he gets in an extra FP (that he piad for with CPs). |
Huh? I have never ever either run a game or played in one that allowed non-FS to learn Force skills and abilities. Being Force Sensitive was always a prerequisite to learning and using them. If the RAW left that out, then it is a major error as far as I am concerned. If this were truly the case in the SWU, it would be overrun with Force use, rather than having it be practiced by an elite few (which is the way it is in the films). |
crmcneill, I am pretty sure you are not seeing what was said here clearly. atgxtg said "Apples are red" and you countered with "But when you said that oranges are orange, you missed that bananas are yellow!". at said that being "Force Sensitive" doesn't in and of itself (in the rules) give a character Force Skills. In other words, if - at character creation - I check the Force Sensitive" box (with GM approval), my character doesn't get the ability to 'Affect Mind' for free. Nor does he suddenly have the ability to use Alter to change a die roll, for instance. Your response about characters needing to be FS to learn and use Force skills, powers, and abilities is something completely different than what was said (that you quoted). |
Taking the quote by itself, you are correct. However, taken in the context of previous statements, particularly this... atgxtg wrote: | Secondly, I never said those with 1D in the Force attribute cannot learn Force skills. I said that they require training to use the Force. | ...it makes things look a little different. What he is proposing (and feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding things, atgxtg) is that all characters, all the way down to the lowest NPC, be given a minimum 1D Force attribute. His 1D Force Attribute will be representative of the Force Sensitivity of the standard non-Force Sensitive character of the RAW. This suddenly makes training in Force skills immediately available to everyone, because if a Force attribute is treated the same as all other attributes, then even a person with 1D becomes eligible to learn Force skills and improve them. In essence, he is saying that a "No" on the Force Sensitive line under the RAW is now a 1D, suddenly making everyone a minor Force Sensitive. Rather than the restricted access imposed by the RAW, Force training would now be available to the general public due to the removal of a major hurdle that restricted access to everyone who had not either checked "Yes" when they created their character or subsequently paid the 20CP required to become Force Sensitive. Under that rule, there would be no requirement for innate talent; anyone could do it if they received proper instruction. That doesn't sound like Star Wars to me. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: |
Taking the quote by itself, you are correct. However, taken in the context of previous statements, particularly this... atgxtg wrote: | Secondly, I never said those with 1D in the Force attribute cannot learn Force skills. I said that they require training to use the Force. | ...it makes things look a little different. What he is proposing (and feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding things, atgxtg) is that all characters, all the way down to the lowest NPC, be given a minimum 1D Force attribute. His 1D Force Attribute will be representative of the Force Sensitivity of the standard non-Force Sensitive character of the RAW. This suddenly makes training in Force skills immediately available to everyone, because if a Force attribute is treated the same as all other attributes, then even a person with 1D becomes eligible to learn Force skills and improve them. In essence, he is saying that a "No" on the Force Sensitive line under the RAW is now a 1D, suddenly making everyone a minor Force Sensitive. Rather than the restricted access imposed by the RAW, Force training would now be available to the general public due to the removal of a major hurdle that restricted access to everyone who had not either checked "Yes" when they created their character or subsequently paid the 20CP required to become Force Sensitive. Under that rule, there would be no requirement for innate talent; anyone could do it if they received proper instruction. That doesn't sound like Star Wars to me. |
Hold the comm unit!
Just becuase someone has 1Din a attribute doesn't give them the ability to use Force Powers. Sure, they could be trained, IF they are so inclined, IFcan find a teacher, IF they don't get gunned down by the Empire, etc. etc.
From a gamplay standpoint this is no different than checking no in the Force Sensitive box. Why? because, as has been pointed out, by the RAW, any character can spend the Cps to become Force Sensitive. So by the RAW any character has the potential to be trained already.
Now Whill's,house rule of not allowing characters to buy Force Sensitivity during play IS different from that standpoint I'd just say a character needs more than 1D to learn Force Powers. And yes, there is a precedent for that, Advanced Skills. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | Could you flesh this concept out a little? Not sure I'm seeing it fully. |
Sure, let's say we have 3 Jedi.
The first Jed, Alfie,i has FCE 2D and 8D in his Force Skills.
The second Jedi, Bennie, has FCE 3D, and 6D in his Force Skills.
And the third Jedi, Ceres, has FCE 4D and 5D in Force skills.
Now lets say they wanted to use a power like Enhanced attribute. If they make the skill roll Alfie would get a 2D bonus, Bennie a 3D bonus, and Ceres a 4D bonus. Now Alfie, as the most experienced (8D0 is probably going to make the roll, while Ceres, the lest experienced will struggle to make the roll, but Ceres will get a bigger bonus.
Now for powers that don't give a straight die bonus, the modfier can be applied in other ways. For instance, for something like burst of Speed, the character might add 5 to his MOVE per D in FCE (or maybe 1 MOVE per pip?).
Now as far as the skill roll goes, what we could do is if the character makes a marginal roll they get half their normal bonus, and if they roll really well, they get a bigger bonus. Maybe something like the following (and yes this is very tentative).
0-5 Marginal: 1/2 bonus
6-10 Success: Standard Bonus
21+ Exceptional Success: 2x Bonus
So now, those character with a high FCE stat are dinfinately more appealing as padawans. In fact, a good deal of the training time for Jedi might be spent working on training up their FCE attribute, per the rules for raising attributes. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Just becuase someone has 1Din a attribute doesn't give them the ability to use Force Powers. Sure, they could be trained, IF they are so inclined, IFcan find a teacher, IF they don't get gunned down by the Empire, etc. etc. |
But don't you see? Under the RAW, Force Sensitive was an indicator of the in-born talent a person had to be born with in able to have the potential to learn Force skills, and it came with the added weight of the moral code a person had to live by. If you didn't have that potential, you couldn't be trained, but you were also allowed to live in the moral grey area between Light and Dark, and this is part of what separated Force users from non-Force Users.
Sure, per the RAW, every being in the galaxy has the potential to become a Force Sensitive (presuming they can come up with 20CP), but by giving every being in the galaxy a starting 1D attribute, you are allowing all of them to bypass that hurdle, and suddenly everyone has the innate ability to become a Jedi, never mind the fact that in the films and EU, that potential was exceedingly rare. 1D may not sound like a lot, but gamers have built up formidable Jedi from a lot less.
Quote: | From a gamplay standpoint this is no different than checking no in the Force Sensitive box. Why? because, as has been pointed out, by the RAW, any character can spend the Cps to become Force Sensitive. So by the RAW any character has the potential to be trained already. |
So then, if this thinking were applied to the RAW, then all Force Sensitive boxes would be checked "Yes"? Regardless of character type? Because, since everyone has the potential to earn 20CP and become Force Sensitive, lets just assume they all did? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: |
But don't you see? Under the RAW, Force Sensitive was an indicator of the in-born talent a person had to be born with in able to have the potential to learn Force skills, and it came with the added weight of the moral code a person had to live by. If you didn't have that potential, you couldn't be trained, but you were also allowed to live in the moral grey area between Light and Dark, and this is part of what separated Force users from non-Force Users. |
No, I don't see that. First off, as has been established the RAW does allow for those who are not Force Sensitive to buy the ability and so they DO have the POTENTIAL to be trained.
Now, this might not have been the right thing to do. In fact, I think it probably came about becuase some players started play and then a few sessions into the game wished that they had chosen to be Force Sensitive, and so a way was created for them to buy it later on.
As far as "living in the moral grey area" -well not for long. Star Wars is about heroes and villains and none of those who live in the "morally grey" area can stay there. Heck, even Han had to choose. In fact, his choice got retconned into the infamous "Greedo Shot First" garbage.
While Force Senstives do get a stricter code, it really isn't that much so. THere are a lot of things I've seen here where GMs have said that they'd give out a DSP for, regardless of Force Sensitivity or not.
Quote: |
Sure, per the RAW, every being in the galaxy has the potential to become a Force Sensitive (presuming they can come up with 20CP), but by giving every being in the galaxy a starting 1D attribute, you are allowing all of them to bypass that hurdle, and suddenly everyone has the innate ability to become a Jedi, never mind the fact that in the films and EU, that potential was exceedingly rare. 1D may not sound like a lot, but gamers have built up formidable Jedi from a lot less. |
First off, it's not much of a hurdle. And secondly, everybody does have that potential in the RAW. Really, if you are running by 2E the door is already wide open. And a 1D attribute is worthless in and of itself. So no harm done.
Now if you are running it like Whill, where Force Sensitivity is chosen at chargen and that's it, you have more of a leg to stand on. But even then you could just say Force skills have a 2D prereq. So it's not the end of the (Star Wars) Universe.
Honestly, I think that it would have been better to leave Force Sensitivity off the sheet, and do something along the lines of what Traveller does with PSI. They don't bother to tract it until you get tested or it somehow comes up. IMO that's they way it should have worked in the Star Wars RPG. That way, those characters who are destined to learn the ways of the Force could have the potential and the rest could just ignore it.
Quote: | So then, if this thinking were applied to the RAW, then all Force Sensitive boxes would be checked "Yes"? Regardless of character type? Because, since everyone has the potential to earn 20CP and become Force Sensitive, lets just assume they all did? |
Okay, let's do that for a moment. What would actually change in the RPG? Not much. About the only real change is the one you mentioned about those who live in a "morally grey" area, and as I've mentioned above, it ain't that morally grey.
But as far as the rules and gameplay goes, the only difference would be the extra FP. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | I don't see that. First off, as has been established the RAW does allow for those who are not Force Sensitive to buy the ability and so they DO have the POTENTIAL to be trained. |
There is a big difference between being able to buy the potential and just arbitrarily saying that they already bought it.
Quote: | As far as "living in the moral grey area" -well not for long. Star Wars is about heroes and villains and none of those who live in the "morally grey" area can stay there. Heck, even Han had to choose. In fact, his choice got retconned into the infamous "Greedo Shot First" garbage. |
The point missed was that, under the RAW, Force Sensitive characters are much more vulnerable to receiving a DSP than a non-FS. AFAICR, the only way for a non-FS to pick up a DSP was to commit an evil act while spending a FP. A gradual moral shift is a common thread of story arcs, but it doesn't mean that non-FS characters feel the draw of the Dark Side in the same way that FS characters do.
Quote: | While Force Senstives do get a stricter code, it really isn't that much so. THere are a lot of things I've seen here where GMs have said that they'd give out a DSP for, regardless of Force Sensitivity or not. |
So, because WEG established rules that GMs choose not to follow, the strict moral code doesn't actually exist?
Quote: | First off, it's not much of a hurdle. And secondly, everybody does have that potential in the RAW. Really, if you are running by 2E the door is already wide open. And a 1D attribute is worthless in and of itself. So no harm done. |
1D worthless? Have you ever played a Jedi?
Under the RAW, a character either has to spend 2D-3D in attribute dice to have starting Force skills, or he had to pay 20CP after character creation and then pay to learn the skills as normal. Giving everyone a starting 1D bypasses both of those hurdles in that all they have to do is find someone to teach them the skills. Since the attribute then becomes the default basis for the skills, having a 1D means that everyone can start learning Force skills right away, rather than just a select few who have the talent for it.
Anyone who has played a Jedi character under WEG's rules knows that getting to start with a full 18D of attribute dice and a 1D in all three Force skills is a gift from GM heaven. Yes, 1D is low compared to 6D or 7D, but anyone who has played a Jedi character has had to build them up from sucky to formidable over the course of several games or campaigns, and doing it from 1D is certainly possible, if not exactly easy. A 1D Force attribute should be the realm of someone like Tionne, who didn't have a very strong Force connection, but still applied herself to become a Jedi.
Quote: | That way, those characters who are destined to learn the ways of the Force could have the potential and the rest could just ignore it. |
I agree, with reservations. My version would be that, at character creation, if you decide your character is not Force Sensitive, leave that attribute spot blank, treat it like it doesn't exist and generate your character using the normal six attributes. If you do decide you want your character to be FS, you then decide how much so and pull that dice from your starting attribute dice. If after character creation, you decide you want your character to become Force Sensitive, you pay 20CP between missions and add an attribute of Force 1D to your character sheet (and pick up an extra FP).
Quote: | What would actually change in the RPG? Not much. About the only real change is the one you mentioned about those who live in a "morally grey" area, and as I've mentioned above, it ain't that morally grey.
But as far as the rules and gameplay goes, the only difference would be the extra FP. |
But as far as story goes, it becomes a critical divergence from the way the SWU works. When creating a character, you are in essence beginning in media res, in that you are starting your character's story in the middle of his life. Checking Yes on Force Sensitive does not mean that the character's story began at the moment he decided whether or not he was Force Sensitive; it means that he has always been Force Sensitive (or that at some point in his past, he awakened that potential in himself). It means that he has always felt occasional premonitions that came true, or that he was sometimes capable of miraculous things, or that he always felt the lure of Light and Dark even if he wasn't truly aware of it. It represents a rare, strong connection to the Force. On the other hand, the people who checked yes are the ones who don't have that strong connection to the Force. It doesn't mean that they aren't living; it just means that they don't feel the Force calling to them the way a Force Sensitive would. It doesn't mean they can't be exceptional or become great; it just means that they lack the innate ability to access the Force in a conscious manner.
In game terms, this difference is represented by an extra FP and additional moral standards that the character has to live by or he is in danger of getting a DSP. A character who chooses to say that, between missions, his character joins a monastery and seeks enlightenment and finds inner peace and awakens his latent connection to the Force actually (in game terms) just spent 20CP to become Force Sensitive. It may not be the most accurate way to represent the special nature of the SWU, but it is what we have right now.
What you are suggesting is that we just throw the distinction between Force Sensitive and non-Force Sensitive right out the window. The people who were born with a latent connection to the Force are no longer special or different, because now everyone is born with the exact same awakened ability that was normally only found in a special few who had been born with it or had awakened it within themselves. I'm not sure why this is so hard to explain. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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