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Savar
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 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What is the source material for reading that has this story line? |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Of course, the Iron Knight aspect brings up another question. If a Shard is Force Sensitive, how does its droid body restrict its use of Control? |
Oooo... this raises a LOT of philosophical questions. Though perhaps as much on Sense as it does on Control. I think that we all agree that purely mental disciplines such as concentration would work just fine or short term memory enhancement. Though I don't imagine that the Shard would get nearly as much use out of "contort/escape." But does the control over the Force allow for the shard to absorb/dissipate energy around the droid body? In I Jedi the main character's clothing was completely consumed, though we have clear evidence that Vader's glove was undamaged. So the material object on/around the body has conflicting evidence of being disturbed. Does that extend to the Jedi (or Iron Knight in this case).
Now, here's the kicker, what about questions of Magnify Senses? What part of the sensation is magnified? Are the sensory objects (eyes, ears, etc.) magnified in the SENSATION (as in the neurochemical transmission of exterior forces acting upon the body's sensory organs) of it, or is the mental PHENOMENA (the mental picture the mind assembles from that array of light, sound, touch, etc.) what is magnified in the sense? If it is the former, then the droid is probably not going to get the benefit. If it is the latter, then certainly the Shard would get the benefit of having its mental phenomena of the sense data magnified.
| crmcneill wrote: | | After all, the droid body is not technically part of the Living Force, so can a Shard use Enhance Attribute to increase the droid body's Strength or Dexterity? |
Personally, I would say that they could enhance the attribute of the SHARD, though not the droid. If you have no dexterity attribute, then you're out of luck.
| crmcneill wrote: | | How closely is the Shard linked to the droid body; is it really "its" body, or is the Shard a pilot driving a droid-shaped Walker? |
People have been asking that very same question since Descartes, my friend. It's a 500 year old fight, but I'll drop you a line when there's a definitive answer. 
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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shootingwomprats
Rear Admiral
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Oooo... this raises a LOT of philosophical questions. Though perhaps as much on Sense as it does on Control. I think that we all agree that purely mental disciplines such as concentration would work just fine or short term memory enhancement. Though I don't imagine that the Shard would get nearly as much use out of "contort/escape." But does the control over the Force allow for the shard to absorb/dissipate energy around the droid body? In I Jedi the main character's clothing was completely consumed, though we have clear evidence that Vader's glove was undamaged. So the material object on/around the body has conflicting evidence of being disturbed. Does that extend to the Jedi (or Iron Knight in this case). |
It could easily be argued that Vader never even used Absorb/Dissipate, and that he just blocked the shot with a heavily armored gauntlet (which was over a cybernetic hand). That scene is the only film evidence of Absorb/Dissipate until Yoda in AOTC.
As far as manipulating the droid body, I'd say any ability for the shard to do that would have to be Alter based, possibly with completely new powers that resemble the existing Control powers. Telekinesis could potentially be used to augment physical strength...
| Quote: | | Now, here's the kicker, what about questions of Magnify Senses? What part of the sensation is magnified? Are the sensory objects (eyes, ears, etc.) magnified in the SENSATION (as in the neurochemical transmission of exterior forces acting upon the body's sensory organs) of it, or is the mental PHENOMENA (the mental picture the mind assembles from that array of light, sound, touch, etc.) what is magnified in the sense? If it is the former, then the droid is probably not going to get the benefit. If it is the latter, then certainly the Shard would get the benefit of having its mental phenomena of the sense data magnified. |
Someone made the point a while back (it might even have been you, chesh; I can't remember) that, because Magnify Senses was a Sense power, not a Control one, then the sensory input bypassed the character's physical senses and came straight from the Force. If Magnify Senses was a Control power, then the character would've been receiving the input through its own natural senses.
In fact, the argument could be made that Magnify Senses should be moved from Sense to Control.
| Quote: | | People have been asking that very same question since Descartes, my friend. It's a 500 year old fight, but I'll drop you a line when there's a definitive answer. |
In this case, though, I think the distinction between a natural body and an artificial one is pretty clear. The Shard has a natural body (a sessile crystal), which is then inserted into an artificial construct.
On a side note, I read a sci-fi book a while back that featured a very large sessile creature called a Ssli, which was essentially a living, sentient CGT array. It served as a starship's navigator while in hyperspace, but could also use its ability to sense obstacles to track other ships. It lived in a special water-filled tank that was several stories tall (and the Ssli took up most of the tank), and could communicate audibly with the ship's crew verbally (through either audio or data links). I've considered trying to port them over to SWU in the past, possibly having them be natives of Mon Calamari's oceans, and serving as part of the crew of Mon Cal cruisers for navigation purposes...
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Someone made the point a while back (it might even have been you, chesh; I can't remember) that, because Magnify Senses was a Sense power, not a Control one, then the sensory input bypassed the character's physical senses and came straight from the Force. If Magnify Senses was a Control power, then the character would've been receiving the input through its own natural senses.
In fact, the argument could be made that Magnify Senses should be moved from Sense to Control.
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Hmm... I don't think that was me, but it seems to make a good deal of sense. Sense enough for me to run with it anyway.
(And geez, what a way to kill a philosophical debate, coming around and making SENSE! Spoil sport.)
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In this case, though, I think the distinction between a natural body and an artificial one is pretty clear. The Shard has a natural body (a sessile crystal), which is then inserted into an artificial construct.
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I would say so. Though it does raise the question, when the droid is damaged, is the Shard aware that's it's been shot, or does it feel pain?
| Quote: |
On a side note, I read a sci-fi book a while back that featured a very large sessile creature called a Ssli, which was essentially a living, sentient CGT array. It served as a starship's navigator while in hyperspace, but could also use its ability to sense obstacles to track other ships. It lived in a special water-filled tank that was several stories tall (and the Ssli took up most of the tank), and could communicate audibly with the ship's crew verbally (through either audio or data links). I've considered trying to port them over to SWU in the past, possibly having them be natives of Mon Calamari's oceans, and serving as part of the crew of Mon Cal cruisers for navigation purposes... |
This is a fascinating idea. I'm imagining something coming over the com, though, "I'm sorry, Ackbar, I'm afraid I can't do that."
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | Hmm... I don't think that was me, but it seems to make a good deal of sense. Sense enough for me to run with it anyway.
(And geez, what a way to kill a philosophical debate, coming around and making SENSE! Spoil sport.) |
| Quote: | | I would say so. Though it does raise the question, when the droid is damaged, is the Shard aware that's it's been shot, or does it feel pain? |
Depends on the feedback systems built into the droid. The films establish that even something basic like a power droid can sense painful feedback when you apply hot irons to the soles of its feet, so it can be assumed that all droids have the capacity to sense damage to some degree.
| Quote: | | This is a fascinating idea. I'm imagining something coming over the com, though, "I'm sorry, Ackbar, I'm afraid I can't do that." |
Oddly enough, one of the plotlines in the book was that there was a spy / traitor on board. At one point, the Ssli made an unauthorized course change (that turned out to be necessary, but the Ssli had no time to confirm it with the captain), and there was a split-second of terror in the captain's mind at the possibility that the Ssli was the traitor, and how badly that would cripple them if it were so.
As far as stating it out, I've already somewhat laid the groundwork for it. The hard part was figuring out what to use for ranges in hyperspace; I ended up using rounds (or minutes, in the case of long range sensors) at x1 hyperdrive. The only thing left to do would be to stat something like that out.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Would not the shard char need a piloting skill for the locomotion type the droid they are in uses, as they are piloting it not the droid? |
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Thx1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 182
Location: Where ever the Force takes me
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, the shard and the droid merge into one being, so a piloting skill will not be needed. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Honestly i have never liked the concept behind the Shard, especially the whole "Iron knight" aspect of them, or their droid riding.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Honestly i have never liked the concept behind the Shard, especially the whole "Iron knight" aspect of them, or their droid riding. |
Maybe you don't like either one, but that's two very different things. I don't like straight droid PCs but do like Shards as an alternative. However I feel "Iron Knights" is pushing it way too far, so in my SWU, Shards cannot be Force-sensitive. So I feel I've got the happy medium. If a player really wants to play a Force-sensitive character in my game, they can choose one with an organic body.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the big reason people liked playing shards WAS cause of their force sensitivity..
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I thought the big reason people liked playing shards WAS cause of their force sensitivity.. |
They species as a whole is not Force-sensitive, and it is not even like they are even largely Force-sensitive. At least according to the original source for the species in the Adventure Journal. If there was a later retcon that said that, I am not aware of it. I'm pretty sure that the original AJ article doesn't even mention Force sensitivity.
Maybe in light of the EU's Iron Knights, the big reason people liked playing Shards was because it is a way for droids to be Force-sensitive? I don't know. I've never had a player play a shard in my game. In recent years I changed my ban on Shards because of having to deny a couple players who really wanted to play droids, which I still don't allow. Shards are a happy medium. So now it looks like this in my game:
Force-sensitive PCs: Yes.
Strait droids: No.
Shards with droid bodies: Yes.
Force-sensitive PCs with droid bodies: No, choose one of the two but not both.
But to each GM his own.
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