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Bobmalooga
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Joined: 13 Sep 2010
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Location: The south...
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 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: |
Anyway, there were certainly things I wasn't thrilled with but I'd be curious to hear why you hated everything. Although I have seen some post that Han's death "ruined" SW for them forever.*
*[just a report; I thought it was a little melodramatic but I didn't think it ruined my childhood or anything] |
Y'know, I am better with this death than dropping a moon on him...
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | I'm sure there was more offscreen. |
IMO, being sure that there was more offscreen is less concrete than not seeing it on-screen. Even in your quote, the link to the no-attachment rule is oblique at best, and could just as easily be Obi-wan and Yoda trying to get Luke to see the bigger picture; that there was more going on then just his friends in danger. | Quote: | | Obi-wan: "It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer." |
Granted, this is an attempt to retcon a disparity between the classic and prequel trilogies, but it is not unrealistic to say that the Jedi failed in the prequels, which would necessitate a rethinking of the Jedi ways by those who survived.
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Barrataria
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Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bobmalooga wrote: | | Y'know, I am better with this death than dropping a moon on him... |
Exactly, or any other of a zillion silly ways to do it. And anything like "oh, he was still on Starkiller when it blew up" would just lead to speculation he was still around.
Nobody really had time to do much grieving, I think, particularly poor Carrie Fisher and her immovable face. I'm not much for funerals, filmed or otherwise, so I didn't feel a lack of anything.
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Barrataria
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Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | IMO, being sure that there was more offscreen is less concrete than not seeing it on-screen. Even in your quote, the link to the no-attachment rule is oblique at best |
| Barrataria wrote: | | sacrifice |
That is the word. It was onscreen. Luke said it and Yoda agreed.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: |
That is the word. It was onscreen. Luke said it and Yoda agreed. |
A single word taken out of context does not a no-attachment lecture make.
| Quote: | | Yoda: Decide you must, how to help them best. If you leave now, help them you could, but...you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered. |
| Quote: | Luke: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
Yoda: If you honor what they fight for? Yes. |
This is the closest Yoda gets to a no-attachment lecture, and the link is ambiguous at best. At the very least, even if Yoda has retained the no-attachment rule, he has rethought his approach to it. It could just as easily be interpreted as a warning to be patient and not play into Vader and the Emperor's hands.
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Barrataria
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Joined: 28 Dec 2005
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Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | A single word taken out of context does not a no-attachment lecture make. |
I emphasized a single word to refute your claim that nothing was said on-screen about it. I could also have included "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter [pinching flesh]", but I imagine those onscreen words don't matter either.
Anyway, I get to go see Ep. VII again tomorrow and look forward to digesting more of that film on second viewing.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | A single word taken out of context does not a no-attachment lecture make. |
I emphasized a single word to refute your claim that nothing was said on-screen about it. |
I repeat: a single word taken out of context does not a no attachment lecture make. Just because you insist that the word sacrifice is a substitute for an entire lecture on the dangers of attachment does not make it so, especially when viewing that one word in context clearly shows it to be less specific than that.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Right.
| Barrataria wrote: | Luke: "But Han and Leia will die if I don't."
Ben's Force Ghost" "You don't know that."
Luke: "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"
Yoda: "If you honor what they fight for, yes."
I'm sure there was more offscreen.
| Whill wrote: | | And this lone Jedi Master by default got the job by being unwilling to kill his father, and his father being unwilling to let his son die. |
That doesn't make much sense. He didn't save his father so that he could become a Jedi per se... and he became the last when Yoda died, something over which he had no control.
Anyway, I won't keep derailing this thread about Ep. VII with debates about Ep. V. |
LOL. And VI too. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. After Yoda died, Luke was the final Jedi, yes. But that alone is not what made Luke a Jedi Master. If Luke had died when confronting the Sith, there would have been no one left to eventually become a Jedi Master to train a new generation of Jedi.
The only way Luke could go on to later become a Jedi Master was by (1) not crossing over to the Dark Side, (2) defeating the Sith, and (3) not dying. He passed the test of not crossing over to the Dark Side, but could not defeat the Sith on his own and was dying. His father destroyed the Sith to save Luke's life. So by virtue of being the only Jedi left after the Sith were destroyed, Luke later became the default Jedi Master. Therefore, the only way that Luke eventually got the job of being a Jedi Master was "by being unwilling to kill his father, and his father being unwilling to let his son die." That kinda spits in the face of avoiding attachment. That is how Luke became a full fledged Jedi Knight, so that he could later train more Jedi and become a Master.
| Barrataria wrote: | | Barrataria wrote: | | sacrifice |
That is the word. It was onscreen. Luke said it and Yoda agreed. |
| Barrataria wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | A single word taken out of context does not a no-attachment lecture make. |
I emphasized a single word to refute your claim that nothing was said on-screen about it. I could also have included "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter [pinching flesh]", but I imagine those onscreen words don't matter either. |
You do seem to be cherry picking onscreen Jedi Master quotes. Let's look at the greater context of Yoda's comments about sacrificing Han and Leia.
| Quote: | If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
Luke! You must complete the training.
You must not go!
This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.
It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.
Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader.
Stopped they must be! On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.
Luke, don't give in to hate - that leads to the dark side.
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.
Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.
That boy is our last hope.
Your father he is. Told you, did he?
No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you.
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke...Do not...Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate, you will. Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned. |
Since my childhood it has been clear to me that Yoda felt that sacrificing Han and Leia would be worth it if it meant Luke not crossing over to the Dark Side like his father had or getting himself killed. The downfall of the old Jedi order shown in Episode III strengthens this, and upon further analysis it seems even more clear now. So was Yoda saying don't be too attached to Han and Leia? Sure. But the main point was clearly that Yoda and Obi-Wan feared that if Luke left to face Vader with incomplete training, it would endanger the overall mission of destroying Vader and the Emperor. "On this, all depends." The body of evidence does not suggest that Yoda was concerned that attachment to Han and Leia would directly be Luke's downfall. The concern was clearly Vader converting Luke to the Dark Side, which they feared would be easier if Luke had incomplete Jedi training before finding out that Vader is his father. If Luke didn't defeat the Sith leadership of the Empire and instead just joined them or died, then everything Han, Leia and the Rebels have fought for (the Rebel cause) could become null and void. Yoda and Obi-Wan clearly believed Luke was their best chance for defeating Palpatine's Empire (Leia was Plan B at that point as they were willing to sacrifice her for the sake of Luke).
| Barrataria wrote: | | so.... did Luke have a little problem with "attachment" right before he took off? |
All this discussion about V and VI came out of the suggestion that Luke may have had to violated his own attachment rules of his own Jedi order to procreate Rey ("like father, like son"). I conceded that was possible, and then merely mentioned that was not necessarily the case because those strictures against attachment may not have been a part of Luke's new Jedi order.
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Bobmalooga
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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The argument as I see it with the notion of attachment isn't one that is even addressed on screen in the OT. Arguing about the meaning and subtext of dialogue that was written 17-14 years before the second series of movies was even written is pointless.
Guys, Lucas didn't have a grand plan when he wrote this stuff. He made it up (despite what he says or has been said about him...) pretty much as he went along. Leia wasn't going to be his sister originally, they have said this numerous times and the fact that she became his sister had more to do with the fact that they 'wern't going to come back for third trilogy'. Vader wasn't intended to be his father originally and again, they changed that mid-stream.
When they wrote 5 and 6, the thought of going back and telling the story wasn't even in their mind. If it had been, if he had some master plan like he tries to claim that he did, then he wouldn't have screwed up the prequels with 1 line of dialogue from Jedi about Leia remembering her real mother.
Obi-Wan would have also said that something more in line with 'your father, whose relationship with your mother was forbidden due to the tennents of the Jedi order, would have wanted you to have this when you were old enough...' rather than the line as presented.
If the story hadn't mutated and changed like it did, they wouldn't have needed to make Obi-wan into the lying manipulator that they turned him into. A character who, along with Yoda, was all to ready to send Luke off to unknowningly commit patricide...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well just got back from seeing it and here are my thoughts.
I loved the initial showing of fin, being so cowardly and all. makes a change from storm troopers being so brazen. I also liked how he was gasping for air back aboard the main ship, like he was trying to stave off a panic attack.
The fight to get out, i thought was well done as well, though his blowing up stuff seemed more hapenstance, rather than planned.
The meeting between fin an ray was decent, though why did he all of a suddenly grow some courage to flee with her "holding her hand' dragging her along?
That 'gal' han met up with to try and get Fin, BB-8 and ray to, i would LOVE to know more on her, and her species..
Loved the fight between Fin and the stormie with the staff, but glad that he got killed by Chewie.
The scene at the rebel base as they were explaining everything on Starkiller, seemed very Hoth/Yavin to me, though why did we only see Xwings? Are all the other fighters the rebellion had gone?
All in all a very nice addition to the saga, though i really missed some space battles in this one.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | The scene at the rebel base as they were explaining everything on Starkiller, seemed very Hoth/Yavin to me, though why did we only see Xwings? Are all the other fighters the rebellion had gone?
All in all a very nice addition to the saga, though i really missed some space battles in this one. |
Glad you liked it!
X-Wings are the iconic rebel fighters - Luke destroyed the first Death Star in one. I'm sure other fighters exist elsewhere in the Resistance, but for this movie they stuck with the classic (well, new take on the classic). I actually thought that the TIEs would be more like Interceptors since they were more advanced than the standard ties, but again, they were going with the iconic fighters inspired by the original Star Wars (A New Hope).
And the space battles were air battles in this film, so the same thing dramatically but different setting. I thought it was a nice variation.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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True. I loved the 'run through' that crashed SD's innards.. Also liked the battle over Maz's castle (where we got the clip of all those Xwings water skimming..
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Heh. The salvagers picked that thing like termites until there was little left but a hollow log. It made the most awesome environment for a chase scene. Very much in line with what we'd expect to follow the OT.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Couple things to keep in mind. The Resistance is flying two squadrons of T-70's. The current version used by the New Republic Navy are the T-85's. After the destruction of Hosnian Prime how much of the NR Navy survived or how much of the government (probably not much) and accompanying senate (depending on if they were in session or not and how many of the senators were actually on planet at the time).
Gathering information and putting thins together. The Resistance is quite small, even in comparison to what we see in ANH. They had two squadrons when they attacked Starkiller Base of which they lost at least half if not more.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | Couple things to keep in mind. The Resistance is flying two squadrons of T-70's. The current version used by the New Republic Navy are the T-85's. After the destruction of Hosnian Prime how much of the NR Navy survived or how much of the government (probably not much) and accompanying senate (depending on if they were in session or not and how many of the senators were actually on planet at the time).
Gathering information and putting thins together. The Resistance is quite small, even in comparison to what we see in ANH. They had two squadrons when they attacked Starkiller Base of which they lost at least half if not more. |
I only saw 7 fighters along with the falcon survive the base fight.
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