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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Ionization |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | You did have lost speed levels from ionization in your damage system (I think the Aug 28th edit was adding your location targeting rules). I have highlighted a confusing part relevant to our discussion yesterday in blue text above. It seems you may need to clarify your chart rules.
Maintaining the same speed and heading at the threshold of maneuverability being reduced to 0D is straight out of RAW, as I was saying when you brought up the lost moves. How is it possible for the ship to maintain the same speed while also losing speed levels at the same time? If ionization is cumulative at any given time, then new ionization will reduce speed further. Or is it that the maintaining the same speed when maneuverability is reduced to 0D overrides the lost moves? |
That was an editing error. It's an obvious conflict. Obviously, if ionization is inflicting Lost Moves, then the ship's Speed would drop as indicated by the Lost Moves, not stay constant. |
OK.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It would make sense to have the Lost Moves take effect in subsequent rounds. For instance, if a ship traveling at All-Out takes 2D Ionization, it would slow to Full in the following round, then Cruising in the round after that. |
That was actually my next question, since in RAW you can only intentionally accelerate or decelerate one speed level per round. I am considering for my ionization rules of replacing RAWs lack of being able to change speed to something like your system, with temporary speed reductions (since this can be less than light damage where actual engine damage can occur resulting in a loss of speed levels that needs repaired).
But it seems to me that keeping track of a mix of temporary speed reductions with actual engine damage lost speed levels is not conducive to ease of play. Likewise, if a ship is going fast and gets hit with a ion canon doing several dice worth of ionization or multiple attacks with ionizations that overlap, keep track of the subsequent round decelerations would also not seem conducive to ease of play.
Having the controls freeze at a certain threshold is easier because it is exact opposite–the effected ship can't change speed until the effect wears off. Then when it does wear off, the ship is still moving the same speed from before the 'controls frozen' result, from which it can then accelerate or decelerate per the rules. Much easier than potentially multiple, overlapping, temporary (on their own schedules) ionization results with various speed level penalties decelerating the ship over multiple rounds.
As far as the sensible technobabble about thrust being required to keep the ship moving in space because of the effect of the ship's own inertial compensation (which also explains why ships have a max sublight speed), technobabble expanding on that can be introduced. It could simply be that the 'controls frozen' result of ionization does temporarily affect the ship's inertial compensator and the 'failsafe' (I introduced in my inertial compensator damage rule) kicks in, preventing a change in vector until the effect subsides.
But I'm definitely going to change the threshold from maneuverability (or speed code) being reduced to 0D to instead being a flat die code amount. In light of our discussion I think I will also be tweaking my 'controls ionized' effects too. These discussions are helpful to me!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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An alternate possibility...If the ship drops below 0D Maneuverability, it maintains its current Speed and Heading until it either bleeds off the Ionization or it incurs a Controls Dead result.
Once it hits Controls Dead, its Move Level decreases by 1 step every 2 rounds until it comes to a stop. So, if, for example, an ISD is traveling at Cruising Speed when it takes a Controls Dead result, it continues at Cruising for 1 round (the remainder of the current round and all of the next one). At the beginning of round 3 (the round after next), it slows to Cautious for all of that round, and Round 4. At the beginning of Round 5, the ship comes to a halt.
Going for a slower, every-other-round deceleration better reflects the "drift to a halt" effect I'm picturing.
Also, since there are ships out there with 0D Maneuverability, I think it's appropriate (if you're really not a fan of my negative Maneuverability idea) that being reduced to 0D by ionization shouldn't be threshold at which the ship ceases to be able to Maneuver.
On a side note, negative Maneuverability has come up before; Raven Redstar suggested it previously.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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I created a Spaceship System Targeting ("called shot") system I'm happy with.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | An alternate possibility...If the ship drops below 0D Maneuverability, it maintains its current Speed and Heading until it either bleeds off the Ionization or it incurs a Controls Dead result.
Once it hits Controls Dead, its Move Level decreases by 1 step every 2 rounds until it comes to a stop. So, if, for example, an ISD is traveling at Cruising Speed when it takes a Controls Dead result, it continues at Cruising for 1 round (the remainder of the current round and all of the next one). At the beginning of round 3 (the round after next), it slows to Cautious for all of that round, and Round 4. At the beginning of Round 5, the ship comes to a halt.
Going for a slower, every-other-round deceleration better reflects the "drift to a halt" effect I'm picturing. |
For me, your controls dead is way too punitive for ion damage so I just have a version of RAW's controls frozen at the 5D point, with some added affects not in RAW. On the way to controls frozen, RAW has ionization results last for two rounds and I tweaked it to the rest of the current round and next round to make it more like stun damage for characters. All controls ionized effects happening simultaneously at every die level is too punitive for my tastes, so I decided to have a 1D roll for each die of ionization to determine which system is affected, making it more like a temporary version of lightly damaged. I did add a speed reduction effect possibility which reduces the ships' current speed by one speed level on the next round, but that is the only speed reduction possible because you can't decelerate more than one move speed per round and the temporary ionized controls result is over the next round. However results of that on successive rounds could keep slowing the ship down one speed move per round, but since it is temporary the ship could speed back up when they stopped occuring.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Also, since there are ships out there with 0D Maneuverability, I think it's appropriate (if you're really not a fan of my negative Maneuverability idea) that being reduced to 0D by ionization shouldn't be threshold at which the ship ceases to be able to Maneuver.
On a side note, negative Maneuverability has come up before; Raven Redstar suggested it previously. |
Negative Maneuverability makes sense to me, but that can't be fully implemented with just a house rule – That requires restatting some ships too. However I did change all of my controls ionized effects (and some other damage results) to penalties to skill rolls (the above-mentioned speed level reduction is the one controls ionized exception).
Please see this post of the Star Wars D6 Damage thread for all my recent updates.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I am not quite grasping the Ionization damage. Does the Ionization damage (1D, 2D, 3D, etc.) Indicate the due penalty to all actions during the current turn? Are there any residual effects the following turn(s)?
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I am not quite grasping the Ionization damage. Does the Ionization damage (1D, 2D, 3D, etc.) Indicate the due penalty to all actions during the current turn? Are there any residual effects the following turn(s)? |
The rules for Ion weapons aren't specific, but if you check out the Controls Ionized result on the RAW Damage chart, it describes Ionization affecting all actions for the rest of that round and all of the next. For the sake of simplicity of record-keeping, I prefer to go with -1D per Controls Ionized result for any actions for the rest of the round, rolling off at a rate of 1D per round, applied at the beginning of the round. That makes it easier for GMs to keep track of, since they don't have to remember which ionization effect occurred when.
And it does stack, so if a ship takes a Controls Ionized result from a laser cannon, and subsequently takes 2 Controls Ionized results from an Ion Cannon barrage, its combined Controls Ionized penalty is -3D, which then drops to -2D at the beginning of the next round, and so on (assuming the ship doesn't take even more Ionization damage).
The original rules penalized (unfairly, IMO) ships with low Maneuverability, as they went straight to Controls Dead if their Maneuverability dropped to 0D or below as a result of Ionization. My version penalizes all skill rolls involving ship systems, so that a character with 5D in Piloting and a ship with 1D (6D combined skill level) in Maneuverability that suffers 3D in Ionization penalties will still be able to make Maneuvers at a combined skill of 3D.
Then, if a ship ever hits 5D Ionization or more, it suffers more permanent effects, requiring repairs before it can be used again.
In fact, now that I think about it, it might be a good idea to adjust the chart so that 5D Ionization result is the Controls Frozen result from the RAW, with more permanent damage starting at 6D Ionization...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Something along these lines...
IONIZATION DAMAGE
Ionization damage can have a cumulative effect that completely overwhelms a ship's systems, causing permanent damage that must be repaired before the ship can be used. If in a single round, Ionization damage exceeds 5D, it causes permanent damage to the target ship's systems. For example, if a ship suffering a -3D Ionization penalty is hit by an ion cannon for 3D of Ionization Damage, totaling 6D Ionization, the ship suffers the Controls Dead result, and is dead in space, adrift, with all drives, maneuvering and other ship systems disabled. Use the following chart for cumulative Ionization damage:0-4 = 1D Ionization
5-8 = 2D Ionization
9-12 = 3D Ionization
13-16 = 4D Ionization
17-20 = 5D Ionization (Controls Dead*)
21-24 = 6D Ionization (Controls Lightly Damaged)
25-28 = 7D Ionization (Controls Heavily Damaged)
29-32 = 8D Ionization (Controls Severely Damaged)
33+ = 9D Ionization (Controls Destroyed)
Repair Difficulties and Times are as listed under the appropriate Repair skill.
*A ship with Controls Dead must maintain the same speed and direction for the remainder of the round and all of the next; it may not turn, fire weapons, make shield attempts or take any other actions, making the ship an easy target for enemy gunners. The ship will still accumulate or lose any additional Ionization damage as normal. Once a ship has been disabled by a Controls Damaged or Destroyed result, it can no longer suffer additional Ionization results until it is repaired. This is due to blown circuit breakers and loss of power protecting ship's systems from additional power surges.
In addition, once a ship has reached Controls Dead or Damaged, it automatically fails any Movement skill rolls required by its Speed and/or Terrain. To generate a result, calculate the ship's Piloting Difficulty for that round and compare it to the following table:Terrain/Speed Difficulty = Dice
VE = 1D3
E = 1D
M = 2D
D = 3D
VD = 4D
H = 5D
H+ = 6D Roll the indicated Dice against the appropriate Movement Failure Chart (2R&E pg. 109 for Vehicles, and pg. 125 for Starships) and apply the result as indicated. Repeat once per round as needed until the ship either regains control or is destroyed.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I like this revision, but if Controls are lightly, heavily, or severely damaged, does that require each and every system to be repaired - sensors, engines, hyperdrives, weapons, life support, etc.? If so, is this too detrimental to impose permanent damage? And if the controls are destroyed, is the ship effectively destroyed as well?
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | if Controls are lightly, heavily, or severely damaged, does that require each and every system to be repaired - sensors, engines, hyperdrives, weapons, life support, etc.? If so, is this too detrimental to impose permanent damage? And if the controls are destroyed, is the ship effectively destroyed as well? |
I don't see the need to go into that sort of detail. It's the "controls" that are damaged, after all, so just handwave that the controls serve as a final failsafe, blowing out before the various systems themselves can be damaged (so you don't have to replace absolutely everything), and that insulated emergency backups kick in to sustain emergency life support and gravity. That way, you're just replacing damaged components in the electronic control and/or power distribution systems, and once those are fixed, the ship comes back to life.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:46 am Post subject: |
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I've been mulling over some changes to the Damage post, particularly the Severely Damaged result. A couple things bothered me the last time I read through it. First, there's a pattern established in Lightly Damaged and Heavily Damaged that is broken in Severely Damaged, specifically what results are paired with what numbers;1 - Maneuverability
2 - Sensors
3 - Weapons
4 - Hyperdrive
5 - Shields
6 - Engines I'm going to shuffle the results so that they are all in the same "number" at all three levels.
Secondly, I have some issues with the results. For one, Overloaded Reactor doesn't really give you any specifics as to what happens after the reactor is shut down, so I'm thinking of combining it with Dead In Space. For another, it occurred to me that there's no actual way on the Damage Chart to achieve a result seen in TESB (specifically, "we just lost the main rear deflector; one more hit on the back quarter and we're done for."), so I'm thinking of inserting a new result for Shields that duplicates this effect.
Here's my thoughts on what Severely Damaged would look like:Severely Damaged.
If a Severely Damaged ship is damaged again, it is Destroyed (or becomes Catastrophically Damaged, at GM's discretion).
1. Controls Damaged / Bridge Smashed. The ship's control systems are badly damaged. -3D to all skill rolls. For starfighters and space transports, the ship's control linkages and computer systems have been damaged; for capital ships, the ship's bridge or other central command station has taken a direct hit, killing or injuring many of the ship's senior officers.
2. Sensors Destroyed. All Sensors are rendered inoperable. Fire Control is reduced by -4D, and Piloting and Astrogation suffer a -4D penalty due to the loss of all sensor support for navigation purposes.
3. Disabled Weapons. All weapons systems lose power. Roll 1D:1-4: Weapons are Severely Damaged but may be repaired.
5-6: All weapons aboard the ship are Destroyed.
4. Disabled Hyperdrive. The ship's main hyperdrive is damaged, requiring a Moderate Repair roll and one hour of work. The ship's backup hyperdrive (if any) is still functional.
5. Disabled Shields. Roll 1D:1-4: The Shield Generator in the damaged arc is inoperable.
5-6: All the ship's Shield Generators are inoperable. Any damaged Shield Generator must be repaired before it can be used again. Roll 1D to determine the level of damage:1-3 = Heavily Damaged
4-5 = Severely Damaged
6 = Destroyed (Cannot be repaired, must be replaced).
6. Overloaded Reactor. The ship's reactor is overloading; unless it's shut down (Easy Repair Roll), the reactor will explode in 1D rounds and destroy the ship. Once the reactor is shut down, the ship is adrift in space, and all drives and maneuvering systems are inactive.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps I read too quickly, but I did not see the Shields result that simulates the result from ESB (rear deflector... one more hit). I always just assumed that without shields, a typical starship would be destroyed with a single hit. In D6, the Shields are just a nice bonus, but I think they are much more vital than the WEG rules suggest. I personally love your rules for Shields as Cover, because it better simulates this in my opinion.
Another note: hyperdrives disabled seems like a minor result for severely damaged. I would think for severely damaged, the hyperdrive is destroyed. You have to limp somewhere on your back-up hyperdrive or sublights. When you get somewhere, that's a costly replacement. It is also a great mechanism to limit the player's ability to go anywhere ant time when you need to keep them in a certain locale or region...
As a side note: I do allow multiple heavily damaged results, particularly for freighters and capital ships. It can be a lot of fun when the mechanical failures start to really stack up. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I did not see the Shields result that simulates the result from ESB (rear deflector... one more hit). I always just assumed that without shields, a typical starship would be destroyed with a single hit. In D6, the Shields are just a nice bonus, but I think they are much more vital than the WEG rules suggest. |
And you are basing that assumption on standard TIEs, which have no combat shields? They have a 2D hull in the game but most ships are better. I also hope you are not basing it on dialogue from Threepio (a single hit on an unshielded part of the ship and they're "done for"). It was blasts from star destroyer weapons which could have been high damage, but Threepio has also been known for hyperbole.
As far as shield arcs not having shields at all, I'll let CRM answer for himself but my damage system reflects that possibility. My shields result for heavy damage includes the arc hit no longer being able to be protected with shields.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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SOrt of like the arc's emitter got taken out!
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I did not see the Shields result that simulates the result from ESB (rear deflector... one more hit). I always just assumed that without shields, a typical starship would be destroyed with a single hit. In D6, the Shields are just a nice bonus, but I think they are much more vital than the WEG rules suggest. |
And you are basing that assumption on standard TIEs, which have no combat shields? They have a 2D hull in the game but most ships are better. I also hope you are not basing it on dialogue from Threepio (a single hit on an unshielded part of the ship and they're "done for"). It was blasts from star destroyer weapons which could have been high damage, but Threepio has also been known for hyperbole. |
I was basing it on the movies. Nearly every ship that is hit goes poof with one shot, not just TIE fighters. X-wings have 4D hull and a modest amount of shields and they pop just the same when hit by a TIE Fighter. Very rarely do we see a ship hit and just suffer some damage compared to the number of one shot, one kills.
I am fine with the RAW, I just personally think the Shields in Star Wars were made too weak in the game for what they should be. I certainly don't think they should be like Star Trek shields though! |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | SOrt of like the arc's emitter got taken out! |
I call them projectors, but yeah. I see each ship's shield system as having a shield projector for each arc. The total shield energy can be moved around between the arcs, but with a certain kind of damage, the total shields are -2D total and one projector is knocked out, making it impossible to shift any remaining shields to protect that arc until repaired.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: |
I was basing it on the movies. Nearly every ship that is hit goes poof with one shot, not just TIE fighters. X-wings have 4D hull and a modest amount of shields and they pop just the same when hit by a TIE Fighter. Very rarely do we see a ship hit and just suffer some damage compared to the number of one shot, one kills.
I am fine with the RAW, I just personally think the Shields in Star Wars were made too weak in the game for what they should be. I certainly don't think they should be like Star Trek shields though! |
Based on that, anyone shot with a blaster, via the films, damn near always seems to die instantly. Kylo, and Leia (in the arm) are some of the very few exceptions.
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