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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:20 pm Post subject: Bulk Cruisers, Revising & Expanding WIP |
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So, as of Dangerous Covenants (February 28, 2014), there are, according to Wookiepedia, stats for the Stock Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser.
I do not have Dangerous Covenants yet but my incentives to get it have increased. I am hoping one of you have it & be willing to check something for me.
I'd like to know if the Laser Cannons are Capital or starfighter scale. Insight into the Fire Control & Damage values for the Heavy Bulk Cruiser Turbolasers & Heavy laser cannons would be most welcome! My guess, based on other cruisers, is the Heavy Turbolasers are Fire Control: 4D, Damage: 5D & Heavy Laser Cannons are Fire Control: 3D, Damage: 3D.
Please & Thank you.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Misuse of terminology and nomenclature in stats is one of WEG’s biggest mistakes. Lasers should always be Starfighter-Scale, and 3D is way too low for Heavy Laser Cannon in a setting where normal Laser Cannon do 4D. For example, the Heavy Laser Cannon on the B-Wing does 7D Starfighter-Scale Damage.
I did stats for the Stock Bulk Cruiser a long while back, framing it as an armed cargo ship equipped with civilian-grade weaponry with lower stats than their military equivalents. The stats can be found in my Index.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Bulk Cruisers, Revising & Expanding WIP |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | So, as of Dangerous Covenants (February 28, 2014), there are, according to Wookiepedia, stats for the Stock Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser.
I do not have Dangerous Covenants yet but my incentives to get it have increased. I am hoping one of you have it & be willing to check something for me.
I'd like to know if the Laser Cannons are Capital or starfighter scale. Insight into the Fire Control & Damage values for the Heavy Bulk Cruiser Turbolasers & Heavy laser cannons would be most welcome! My guess, based on other cruisers, is the Heavy Turbolasers are Fire Control: 4D, Damage: 5D & Heavy Laser Cannons are Fire Control: 3D, Damage: 3D.
Please & Thank you. |
I have that book, but does FFG SW even have those "scales"?
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 604
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Bulk Cruisers, Revising & Expanding WIP |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Misuse of terminology and nomenclature in stats is one of WEG’s biggest mistakes. Lasers should always be Starfighter-Scale, and 3D is way too low for Heavy Laser Cannon in a setting where normal Laser Cannon do 4D. For example, the Heavy Laser Cannon on the B-Wing does 7D Starfighter-Scale Damage. |
I'll have to check the RAW & mσybe the lore, but as i recall, turbolasers were clearly & consistently defined as having greater range than standard lasers, not more power. Most youtubers get that wrong, so i suspect One published work spawned that error, & others repeated it, now there's a whole generation of fans with the wrong idea in their heads which they believe to be true.
i think it's the A-9 Vigilance interceptor that has Starfighter-scale turbolasers.
IMHHO, Capital-scale Lasers are not an error & should not be relabeled as turbolasers.
Regarding the Die Codes, i was looking at ships of comparable size (Vindicator HC) & age/era (Victory I SD).
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I did stats for the Stock Bulk Cruiser a long while back, framing it as an armed cargo ship equipped with civilian-grade weaponry with lower stats than their military equivalents. The stats can be found in my Index. |
Ah! Thank you! It Looks good!
How did you determine the Fire Control: & Damage: Die Codes?
| Whill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | So, as of Dangerous Covenants (February 28, 2014), there are, according to Wookiepedia, stats for the Stock Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser.
I do not have Dangerous Covenants yet but my incentives to get it have increased. I am hoping one of you have it & be willing to check something for me.
I'd like to know if the Laser Cannons are Capital or starfighter scale. Insight into the Fire Control & Damage values for the Heavy Bulk Cruiser Turbolasers & Heavy laser cannons would be most welcome! My guess, based on other cruisers, is the Heavy Turbolasers are Fire Control: 4D, Damage: 5D & Heavy Laser Cannons are Fire Control: 3D, Damage: 3D.
Please & Thank you. |
I have that book, but does FFG SW even have those "scales"? |
i have no idea. My knowledge of their systems is limited, mainly the new dice they use.
_________________
Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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I briefly looked at the stats before bed last night and I saw nothing that indicated scale. But I'm far from an expert on FFG. I ran the basic game once and played the regular game once, both many years ago.
Your OP question was worded in such as way that seems to assume FFG has scales like WEG. You know I'm happy to help in any way I can, but I appreciate requests being clear about what you know and what you don't know. Thank you.
I don't have the book handy right now from my candy-dispensing station. Did CRM resolve your inquiry?
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:29 am Post subject: 'Now there are TWO Of THEM!!' |
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| Whill wrote: | I briefly looked at the stats before bed last night and I saw nothing that indicated scale. But I'm far from an expert on FFG. I ran the basic game once and played the regular game once, both many years ago.
Your OP question was worded in such as way that seems to assume FFG has scales like WEG. You know I'm happy to help in any way I can, but I appreciate requests being clear about what you know and what you don't know. Thank you.
I don't have the book handy right now from my candy-dispensing station. Did CRM resolve your inquiry? |
Yes and no. His treatment for the stock Neutron Star is of course well done, it is viable, and despite our disagreement regarding points of lore & the RAW, the stat values he chose are fairly close to what i was planning to use, so i rather like it! In fact, i think i may well use both his version & my own, with the minor differences due to Rendili being decentralized with its many shipyards scattered across vast regions of the galaxy, the rush to get large numbers of the ships finished & in GAR & allies' service.
FFG not having a clear indicator of scale is surprising, confusing, disappointing & annoying. I think i'll plan to get the core rule book & the Dangerous Covenants down the road. I am more familiar with their books for WH40K, which i enjoyed greatly.
As the RAW has set precedent for both Capital & starfighter scale lasers, i'll give the Battle Horn the Capital Lasers, & the Neutron Star the starfighter scale lasers.
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The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Bulk Cruisers, Revising & Expanding WIP |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | I'll have to check the RAW & mσybe the lore, but as i recall, turbolasers were clearly & consistently defined as having greater range than standard lasers, not more power. Most youtubers get that wrong, so i suspect One published work spawned that error, & others repeated it, now there's a whole generation of fans with the wrong idea in their heads which they believe to be true. |
Taking WEG’s stats at face value could lead to that conclusion. However, a more in-depth, critical analysis of the stats, the fluff and the evolution of the rules tells a different story. For starters, I would suggest checking the descriptions of Blasters, Lasers and Turbolasers in the Star Wars Sourcebook (pg. 8), where turbolasers are described as being much more powerful, bulky and slower firing than lasers. There is also the Weapon Summary Chart in GG6: Tramp Freighters, where even the lightest Turbolaser (only does 1D Capital Scale damage) weighs 5 tons (not including the mount, rules for which can be found in the Star Wars Rules Companion), compared to only 2 tons for the standard laser cannon.
| Quote: | I think it's the A-9 Vigilance interceptor that has Starfighter-scale turbolasers.
IMHHO, Capital-scale Lasers are not an error & should not be relabeled as turbolasers. |
The Dark Empire Sourcebook has several obvious stat errors, and equipping a “territorial defense interceptor” with “two heavy turbolaser cannon” that have the exact same stats as would a pair of heavy laser cannon is a perfect example. The DES saying something should be cause to double-check and ask questions, not to override the rest of the RAW on its say-so.
Also, equipping a capital ship with two sets of anti-capital ship weapons, one of which is weaker and shorter ranged than the other, is a useless waste. Capital Ships need big guns to take on other capital ships and little guns to defend against starfighters. Bigger ships can equip different grades of cap ship weaponry so as to engage larger targets and defend against smaller capital ships.
Ultimately, you can do as you like, but duplicating WEG’s chaotic and often contradictory naming conventions is not recommended.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | I briefly looked at the stats before bed last night and I saw nothing that indicated scale. But I'm far from an expert on FFG. I ran the basic game once and played the regular game once, both many years ago.
Your OP question was worded in such as way that seems to assume FFG has scales like WEG.
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FFG does have scales....they just do it slightly differently.
One for Damage, and one for to-hit.
Damage Scale
For damage, they have Personal scale, and Vehicle scale.
I think they are adjusted by a factor of 10.
multiply or divide the damage - which works - because 10 is easy....
Size to hit
For size and to hit, they use a concept of Silhouette
They have 10 of them, from jawa to star destroyer - a difference of two in Silhouette, is one difficulty level shift. (based on size of object - so an Awing is smaller than a walker....).
Summary
So, two scales for damage - either character or vehicle, with flat 10x multiplier.
10 sizes for to hit variance, with each two size difference being a shift in difficulty.
Naming Conventions
| CRM wrote: | | Ultimately, you can do as you like, but duplicating WEG’s chaotic and often contradictory naming conventions is not recommended. |
I am going to agree with CRM on this one - things are all over the place - and not just in WEG sources - comics, games etc. They kind of did what was cool.
In my house rulesoverhaul - I am separating fluff and cool names as much as possible from mechanical rules classifications.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 12:03 am Post subject: |
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pakman to the rescue with the FFG explanations! Thank you.
I realize now that I was looking at the wrong ship. I had put a bookmark in the right place but later when I glanced at it I looked at the light freighter on the opposite page. Oops.
Inquisitor1138, here is the full entry from EotE Dangerous Covenants p.69:
| Quote: | RENDILI STARDRIVE NEUTRON STAR-CLASS BULK CRUISER
Rendili StarDrive's Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser was once a popular warship with planetary defense forces throughout the galaxy. Though lacking the punch of modern capital ships, the Neutron Star does sport enough turbolasers and laser cannons to be useful as an all-around warship for planets with tight defense budgets. They are effective pirate deterrents, and decent support vessels in larger fleets. Mercenaries often adapt the ship to their own specifications, and concoct methods to purchase older vessels from defense forces and then upgrade to more effective designs. The Neutron Star can be armed with a host of different weaponry, although typically they come equipped with a mix of heavy laser cannons and turbolasers.
With the rise of the Empire, many military forces (including the Rebel Alliance) find themselves scrambling for whatever capital ships they can find. Neutron Star cruisers are no match for Imperial Star Destroyers, but cash-strapped navies often have to take what they can get.
[Silhouette 7]
[Speed 1]
[Handling -3]
[DEFENSE 2; 2; 2; 1] [Armor 6]
[Hull Trauma 80] [System Strain 50]
Hull Type/Class: Bulk Cruiser/Neutron Star.
Manufacturer: Rendili Star Drive.
Hyperdrive: Primary: Class 3, Backup: Class 20.
Navicomputer: Yes.
Sensor Range: Long.
Ship's Complement: 2,200 crew.
Starfighter Complement: None.
Encumbrance Capacity: 5,000.
Passenger Capacity: 250 troops.
Consumables: One year.
Price/Rarity: 2,800,000/4.
Customization Hard Points: 6.
Weapons:
Ten port, ten starboard, and four forward
heavy bulk cruiser turbolasers (Fire Arc Port or Starboard or Fore; Damage 11; Critical 3; Range [Long]; Breach 3; Slow Firing 2).
Ten port, ten starboard, and five dorsal heavy laser cannons (Fire Arc Port or Starboard or All; Damage 6; Critical 3; Range [Short]).
Two forward-mounted heavy tractor beam emitters (Fire Arc Forward; Damage -; Critical -; Range [Short]; Tractor 6).
ADDITIONAL RULES
Massive 1: When making an attack targeting this starship, the critical rating of any weapons used counts as 1 higher. |
I hope this helps. I'm sorry that I won't be the one to explain what all this means.
| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | FFG not having a clear indicator of scale is surprising, confusing, disappointing & annoying. |
Well I can only address the "surprising" reaction.
The FFG AoR Beginner Game adventure I ran was completely planetside (IIRC it did involve some AT-ST combat). The EotE regular-game adventure I played at Origins had a very brief space combat scene to start the adventure off, but then the story quickly went planetside. (My character didn't have to make any rolls in space.) I stayed behind after the adventure and talked with the GM for a while (neither of us had anything else going on for the night.) He had played WEG in the 90s and enjoyed it a lot but moved on to other games after WEG stopped publishing SW. He was attracted to the FFG Star Wars production value so invested in a bunch of books (and dice) but couldn't get his friends interested in playing it, so he decided to run some con adventures. He said, "FFG is adept at printing money."
Neither game experience impressed me. It really felt like they looked at what WotC did with Star Wars and D&D, and intentionally designed a crunchy system to maximum word/page count. WEG wanted you to be able to play the game with an all encompassing core book alone, with everything else published just neat details fleshed out so the GM doesn't have to. FFG's game is heavily compartmentalized and marketed just to sell, sell, sell it all. The game system is oppressively crunchy, but the (confusing, disappointing, and annoying) kicker is that it has even less nuance than D6. I realized that the game is crunchy for the sake of crunch, which is just utterly disgusting.
Don't be surprised by any lack of nuance in this game.
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, pakman & Whill! That is quite helpful! Not crystal clear but still very insightful! Thank you!
You did warn me it is rather crunchy - i'll be chewing on this a good long while!
CRMcNeill, you make some valid points. i'll reread the sections you suggest before i proceed further.
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Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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