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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:57 pm Post subject: Ranged Weapons: One Action or One Round? |
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I've always treated ranged weapon skills as though they were a single Action use, which could be used multiples time in a round, and that the weapon stats from the 2E and 2R&E Rulebooks were incorrect when they gave every weapon a RoF: 1.
However, viewed from the perspective of the Reaction skills, and things like the Dueling Blades combat system (where a single roll covers all actions of that type for the entire round), I've begun to wonder if the same applies to ranged weapons, as well. As in, if you want to shoot three different bounty hunters in the same round, do you roll three times with a -2D MAP, or do you use the same Blaster skill roll one time to apply to all three actions? I can't recall anything specific in the rules about this, but the way the RAW is structured suggests it is the latter.
Thoughts?
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ranged Weapons: One Action or One Round? |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've always treated ranged weapon skills as though they were a single Action use, which could be used multiples time in a round, and that the weapon stats from the 2E and 2R&E Rulebooks were incorrect when they gave every weapon a RoF: 1. |
Yes, I believe there are even quotes from creators stating the RoF: 1 were errors. I've never known any GM to adhere to RoF 1 because that would seem to blatantly defy the films.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | As in, if you want to shoot three different bounty hunters in the same round, do you roll three times with a -2D MAP, or do you use the same Blaster skill roll one time to apply to all three actions? I can't recall anything specific in the rules about this, but the way the RAW is structured suggests it is the latter.
Thoughts? |
You do not use the same blaster roll for three shots, whether they are different targets or the same one. The revision that 2e introduced was reaction rolls being able to apply to multiple attacks of the same type, for the original attack it is rolled for and the rest of that round. That's as close as RAW comes.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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What are your thoughts on how all the Ranged Weapon skills from 2E onward are listed as Time To Use: One Round, as opposed to Time To Use: One Action?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Incidentally, part of why I got thinking about this is the House Rule I wrote up for barrage attacks against lightsabers. My original point was that it made no sense for a single accurate shot from a blaster to overcome a Jedi's lightsaber defenses, but that the rule did make sense if the character's single Blaster roll represented multiple shots made at the same target.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | What are your thoughts on how all the Ranged Weapon skills from 2E onward are listed as Time To Use: One Round, as opposed to Time To Use: One Action? |
My thought is, have you looked at R&E? No skills say "Time To Use: One action." RAW does not use that terminology. When RAW says, "One round" it means it normally doesn't take more than one round to complete a task requiring a roll with that skill. See the description of "Time Taken" R&E p.38. This field does not address how many times you can use the skill in a round, unless it is a skill that can often take more than one round, like the description of the Blaster Artillery skill indicates.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Incidentally, part of why I got thinking about this is the House Rule I wrote up for barrage attacks against lightsabers. My original point was that it made no sense for a single accurate shot from a blaster to overcome a Jedi's lightsaber defenses, but that the rule did make sense if the character's single Blaster roll represented multiple shots made at the same target. |
In my mind, a single blaster attack roll could represents 1-3 shots as applicable to the scene, to reflect how in the films they seem to fire a lot more that the rules would indicate. But that is just for descriptive fluff. Game mechanically, to hit and damage still work as in RAW, with MAPs for multiple attacks, etc. I do use your auto-fire rules as-is too.
My son played a brain damaged shock trooper who fulfilled his urge to execute Order 66 by using a rotary canon and an FP on Anakin Vader, who was able to deflect but couldn't go on the offensive. It was just a delaying tactic so a Jedi Master could close and engage, so my son's character could then stop firing at him, rescue younglings, and escape.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | My thought is, have you looked at R&E? No skills say "Time To Use: One action." RAW does not use that terminology. When RAW says, "One round" it means it normally doesn't take more than one round to complete a task requiring a roll with that skill. See the description of "Time Taken" R&E p.38. This field does not address how many times you can use the skill in a round, unless it is a skill that can often take more than one round, like the description of the Blaster Artillery skill indicates. |
Yes, I have looked at R&E, which is what has me wondering. I can't find anywhere in the book, on pg. 38 or otherwise, that specifically states that a blaster or any other ranged weapon must be rolled for each shot. Even the example provided under the MAP rule section only involves one Blaster roll and one Dodge roll.
The only exception I can find (under Dexterity skills, at least; I haven't scanned everything else) is Missile Weapons in 2E, where Time to Use is "less than one round or longer", but is altered to "one round or longer" in 2R&E.
The fact that no skills say "Time to Use: One Action", yet this has been applied to some skills (particularly the reaction skills) and not others in spite of no clear instructions that it should be done that way has me seriously wondering if we've been doing it wrong all this time.
If someone has an example from any other WEG source where a character firing multiple shots in a round has to roll for each shot, please chime in, with a page reference. I'm all ears.
EDIT: Okay, found it. In the combat example, "Greg" didn't declare his second action - a blaster shot at one of the thugs" - until it was his second turn, at which point he made a second Blaster roll. I really wish the RAW was clearer about these things, as opposed to making us parse it from a word problem...
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | In my mind, a single blaster attack roll could represents 1-3 shots as applicable to the scene, to reflect how in the films they seem to fire a lot more that the rules would indicate. But that is just for descriptive fluff. Game mechanically, to hit and damage still work as in RAW, with MAPs for multiple attacks, etc. I do use your auto-fire rules as-is too.
My son played a brain damaged shock trooper who fulfilled his urge to execute Order 66 by using a rotary canon and an FP on Anakin Vader, who was able to deflect but couldn't go on the offensive. It was just a delaying tactic so a Jedi Master could close and engage, so my son's character could then stop firing at him, rescue younglings, and escape. |
I'm assuming you used the rotary cannon stats I consulted on? Part of my House Rule for both the Barrage Attack and Auto-Fire dice allowed the shooter to apply any Auto-Fire dice to their Barrage Attack roll, so a rotary cannon would be uniquely suited to that sort of attack.
Did he have fun?
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | My thought is, have you looked at R&E? No skills say "Time To Use: One action." RAW does not use that terminology. When RAW says, "One round" it means it normally doesn't take more than one round to complete a task requiring a roll with that skill. See the description of "Time Taken" R&E p.38. This field does not address how many times you can use the skill in a round, unless it is a skill that can often take more than one round, like the description of the Blaster Artillery skill indicates. |
Yes, I have looked at R&E, which is what has me wondering. I can't find anywhere in the book, on pg. 38 or otherwise, that specifically states that a blaster or any other ranged weapon must be rolled for each shot. Even the example provided under the MAP rule section only involves one Blaster roll and one Dodge roll.
The only exception I can find (under Dexterity skills, at least; I haven't scanned everything else) is Missile Weapons in 2E, where Time to Use is "less than one round or longer", but is altered to "one round or longer" in 2R&E.
The fact that no skills say "Time to Use: One Action", yet this has been applied to some skills (particularly the reaction skills) and not others in spite of no clear instructions that it should be done that way has me seriously wondering if we've been doing it wrong all this time.
If someone has an example from any other WEG source where a character firing multiple shots in a round has to roll for each shot, please chime in, with a page reference. I'm all ears.
EDIT: Okay, found it. In the combat example, "Greg" didn't declare his second action - a blaster shot at one of the thugs" - until it was his second turn, at which point he made a second Blaster roll. I really wish the RAW was clearer about these things, as opposed to making us parse it from a word problem... |
R&E p.38 says what I said it says, and I never said it says something it doesn't. The fact that it doesn't say 'one action' for ranged skills doesn't mean anything when it doesn't state that for any skills and that field is not addressing 'one action of possibly multiple in a round' vs 'this takes a full round'. It doesn't state one way or the other so we have to look elsewhere for the answer.
You seemed to be working along the lines of an affirmative conclusion based on a negative premise: X true because it doesn't say it's not true. It may have been more explicit in other editions, but those of us who played the game from the beginning had no reason from R&E to think that was being changed from the way it worked before. It never comes out and says what your interpretation of it was in R&E, so there was no reason to assume that was even a possibility. A bold change like that would be more explicit. R&E does not exist in a vacuum. It is part of an evolution of a game system with 1e and Blue Vader before it, and D6 Space after it. I suggest consulting those for questions like these.
EDIT: Good catch on the example.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | In my mind, a single blaster attack roll could represents 1-3 shots as applicable to the scene, to reflect how in the films they seem to fire a lot more that the rules would indicate. But that is just for descriptive fluff. Game mechanically, to hit and damage still work as in RAW, with MAPs for multiple attacks, etc. I do use your auto-fire rules as-is too.
My son played a brain damaged shock trooper who fulfilled his urge to execute Order 66 by using a rotary canon and an FP on Anakin Vader, who was able to deflect but couldn't go on the offensive. It was just a delaying tactic so a Jedi Master could close and engage, so my son's character could then stop firing at him, rescue younglings, and escape. |
I'm assuming you used the rotary cannon stats I consulted on? Part of my House Rule for both the Barrage Attack and Auto-Fire dice allowed the shooter to apply any Auto-Fire dice to their Barrage Attack roll, so a rotary cannon would be uniquely suited to that sort of attack.
Did he have fun? |
Yes, the Z-6 Rotary Canon. He said it his favorite adventure. IIRC he actually only used the weapon on Vader and some dianogas.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It may have been more explicit in other editions, but those of us who played the game from the beginning had no reason from R&E to think that was being changed from the way it worked before. It never comes out and says what your interpretation of it was in R&E, so there was no reason to assume that was even a possibility. A bold change like that would be more explicit. R&E does not exist in a vacuum. It is part of an evolution of a game system with 1e and Blue Vader before it, and D6 Space after it. I suggest consulting those for questions like these. |
If that's the case, it's rather lazy writing. A new edition rulebook should be able to stand on its own, not require references to the precedents set by previous editions. When the system already has rules for some skills where a single skill represents an entire round's worth of actions (not just reaction skills; see the Starfighter Combat rules in 2E RASB) and writes the Skill Descriptions in such a way that it, at best, isn't clear whether that is the case, and then puts the only clarification at the bottom of an example script of an overall combat round, some degree of confusion is inevitable.
Considering how useful it's proven to be to use a single skill roll to represent things like melee combat (Dueling Blades) and dogfighting (see the RASB and my own house rule), it's worth at least considering how house rules for applying the same to Blaster Combat would work...
Another solution would be to list which skills should be Time to Use: One Action. IMO, pretty much all of the Ranged Weapon skills should be altered for clarity.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Yes, the Z-6 Rotary Canon. He said it his favorite adventure. IIRC he actually only used the weapon on Vader and some dianogas. |
Nice! I suppose if you really wanted to get nasty against Force user, I could gen up some rules for a Rotary Arc Blaster. By my math, parrying the spray of a single shot from an Arc Blaster adds +3D to the shooter's Barrage Attack, on top of any Auto-Fire dice. With a rotary weapon, that totals up to +7D...
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've always treated ranged weapon skills as though they were a single Action use, which could be used multiples time in a round, and that the weapon stats from the 2E and 2R&E Rulebooks were incorrect when they gave every weapon a RoF: 1. |
Yes, I believe there are even quotes from creators stating the RoF: 1 were errors. I've never known any GM to adhere to RoF 1 because that would seem to blatantly defy the films. |
The Moon Swing Chronicles: Q&A --> Combat
| Quote: | Q. In all entries for weapons that I have found, the Rate of Fire weapons is listed as one (1). Why did you do this now in the new rules, but still say that people can still do multiple action in a round with a cumulative -1D after the first action? (ed. You’ll have to interpret this one. Just give us the full rules with Rate of Fire).
A. Rate of Fire refers to how many shots per round a weapon can be fired, except in the main rules, where the inclusion of an RoF for the personal weapons was an error. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | R&E p.38 says what I said it says, and I never said it says something it doesn't. The fact that it doesn't say 'one action' for ranged skills doesn't mean anything when it doesn't state that for any skills and that field is not addressing 'one action of possibly multiple in a round' vs 'this takes a full round'. It doesn't state one way or the other so we have to look elsewhere for the answer.
You seemed to be working along the lines of an affirmative conclusion based on a negative premise: X true because it doesn't say it's not true. It never comes out and says what your interpretation of it was in R&E, so there was no reason to assume that was even a possibility. A bold change like that would be more explicit. |
If that's the case, it's rather lazy writing. A new edition rulebook should be able to stand on its own, not require references to the precedents set by previous editions. When the system already has rules for some skills where a single skill represents an entire round's worth of actions (not just reaction skills; see the Starfighter Combat rules in 2E RASB) and writes the Skill Descriptions in such a way that it, at best, isn't clear whether that is the case, and then puts the only clarification at the bottom of an example script of an overall combat round...
Another solution would be to list which skills should be Time to Use: One Action. IMO, pretty much all of the Ranged Weapon skills should be altered for clarity. |
R&E is certainly not perfect. But Schweigh's first hand account describes the production of R&E as rushed, not lazy. They pulled every staff writer and editor in to contribute parts to get it done and published, to take advantage of Special Edition hype. Just saying. My mentioning of consulting other editions was meant to be helpful, a suggestion before jumping to conclusions about the meaning of RAW. But my main point was what is and isn't located within R&E itself. R&E is probably the most standalone WEG Star Wars book there is, over even the 1e core.
His Dueling Blades is not RAW, and the starfighter rules in the RASb are an edge case (quite sensible for the complexity of dogfighting). Every skill in R&E that lists one round in the time taken field, even the ones that say one round or more, can be rolled as single actions within "one round." The only skill that is really vague in this respect is the emergency use of astrogation. Time Taken was never meant to mean what you were reading into it. There is no reason to assume that ranged combat skills were different than all the rest in the same book. The way actions in general are described in R&E do not give any hint that ranged attack skills work differently than all the rest. And the example you refer to is the only one you have found so far.
| Quote: | | some degree of confusion is inevitable. |
Inevitable? I do not recall ever encountering this misinterpretation from anyone else, as a GM of many players, as a player under other GMs, and as an active member in the WEG SW online community. In fact, you yourself aren't some noob that is just coming into this game 25 years later. If this confusion was so inevitable, why weren't you ever confused before now? I can't imagine anyone just coming up with this idea (that range skills work differently because it doesn't say they don't) and thinking that maybe we've all been doing it wrong since the 90s. But I could be wrong so we will leave this thread in official rules just in case anyone else is ever confused.
| Quote: | | Considering how useful it's proven to be to use a single skill roll to represent things like melee combat (Dueling Blades) and dogfighting (see the RASB and my own house rule), it's worth at least considering how house rules for applying the same to Blaster Combat would work... |
Please, have at it and create a house rules post for it. Just like with Intimidation and Willpower being Knowledge skills for 'dump stat reasons', WEG's intentions shouldn't prevent GMs from considering alternatives.
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