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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 809
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | If so, I respect your position but I feel the benefit of a newly-published D6 Star Wars RPG would outweigh the value of the stat books. I don't mean to diminish the time and hard work you have put into them, but I would gladly welcome a cease-and-desist order for the production and availability of our fan creations if it meant a new Star Wars D6 game were being produced. I would happily choose the legally, officially published SW D6 game over our community's unofficially produced material. And our fan community is not going anywhere with or without the fan books, so it seems to me that we could do without them if we legally had to. |
Whill, I'm curious as to your reasoning here. Is the presumption that officially published material is, substantively, of better quality than fan-made material?
I'm asking because I am not sufficiently familiar with the fan-based material, not because I'm critical of your point. I'm just curious.
So far, I've not seen any action on FFG's part regarding the Warhammer fan-community. Because of WFRP's long hiatus of printed material, there's a wealth of fan-based stuff out there, including a magazine (Warpstone) that has been sold (to cover printing and shipping costs). The material in the magazine has very high-quality content - higher quality than what Black Industries created for their second edition of the game.
I've not been able to gauge the quality of FFG's content, but from what I gather, their focus has been on rules-content rather than gameworld content. I cannot imagine that they will have any less of a rules-based approach for Star Wars than they do for Warhammer, given the HUGE amount of Star Wars stuff that's already out there.
So, it seems to me that the only added-value FFG is likely to bring is in a rule-set, provided that rule-set is better than what there is. If they're simply going to keep the D6 rule-set, what will they likely offer that you or I need?
Now, they have published adventures for WFRP, and I can see that being an avenue for them, but do those really make much money? |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your well worded and consise dispute concerning my claims. Allow me to respond to the positions you raised as Devil's advocate, bearing in mind that I understand the nature in which you raised the counterarguments.
| Whill wrote: |
And I was not aware that Gibson's unhappiness lead to any legal ramifications. Are you saying that he threatened legal action but then relented? Are you saying that he could have pursued legal action but just chose not to? |
This is an old conversation on the RPG.net forums, so I'm not sure I could find it if I wanted to. However, my recollection is that he stated that the logo and the official stat blocks used in the stat books (such as the Aliens, Force, etc) were "beautiful pieces of plagiarism." He was under the mistaken impression that they might have been sold in Brazil. However, if memory served me correct he said that he could peruse legal action as the copyright holder even if they weren't. However, damaged would be difficult to prove. My interpretation of the statements were that, given that he had difficulty keeping WEG afloat, a legal battle wouldn't have been worth his while.
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I think you are saying here that WotC may have only been cool about our D6-based fan creations because they did not use WotC's d20 system, and thus FFC may not approve of D6-based fan creations if they do use D6. Is that a warning that we should be careful what we wish for?
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I mean that WotC was particularly cool about fans creating fan-based adventures, books, spreadsheets, etc. From what I understand, Deciper was not nearly as pleased when people made adventures and the like for the LotR. My ruminations were largely surrounding whether they as a licence holder for Star Wars 1) had the prerogative to issue C&D orders to websites publishing Star Wars items for RPG items that were not related to their system. And 2) if that is their prerogative, whether they are likely to do so.
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If so, I respect your position but I feel the benefit of a newly-published D6 Star Wars RPG would outweigh the value of the stat books. I don't mean to diminish the time and hard work you have put into them, but I would gladly welcome a cease-and-desist order for the production and availability of our fan creations if it meant a new Star Wars D6 game were being produced. I would happily choose the legally, officially published SW D6 game over our community's unofficially produced material. And our fan community is not going anywhere with or without the fan books, so it seems to me that we could do without them if we legally had to.
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If FFG issued a C&D tomorrow asking me to take down my conversions because they had a D6 sourcebook full of better ones in the works, I'd pull the plug with a smile on my face.
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I think a far greater legal concern is and always has been the use of Star Wars IP in fan creations.
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Yes, that is exactly my concern.
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Yet Lucasfilm has always been very consistent in their policy of only going after those who attempt to profit from Star Wars without a legal license to do so. There is so much non-profit Star Wars material on the internet that it's mind-boggling. And much of that is completely legal under Fair Use laws. Wookieepedia alone has over 85,500 articles on official Star Wars material. Lucas even encourages Star Wars fan films to be made and personally provides a annual award to best one, but no one dares to make a penny off of them to avoid legal ramifications.
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That seems to be the trend. LFL is good about letting the fans do their work. Though LFL allows and in some instances requires license holders to protect the Star Wars intellectual property. In one instance LFL required WotC to issue a C&D to the user who was producing The Program That Cannot Be Named (TPTCBN). Granted, that was over electronic media, though our PDFs fall under that category. Thus far there's been no precedent for a license holder to terminate a site over PDFs (and thus far only software), though technically PDFs do fall under the electronic media component of the License. WotC could not produce Saga PDFs, since that privilege belonged to another division of Lucas Arts.
Let me reiterate, I don't think it is likely that they would give us a C&D. The question is that of capability. And if they are capable, what is their general demeanor towards fan productions in their other RPGs.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Yeah, but there are intellectual property rights and such that cover more than just what they print, if I understand correctly. |
I think the key there would be if we are either profiting from their material or are somehow undercutting their profits.
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | jmanski wrote: | | Yeah, but there are intellectual property rights and such that cover more than just what they print, if I understand correctly. |
I think the key there would be if we are either profiting from their material or are somehow undercutting their profits. |
Key to whom? I mean, let's be real here. LFL would be well within their rights as intellectual property owners to shut this site down and tell us not to play with their things. It would be a stupid decision, to be sure, though profit is not the sole factor in IP law.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | LFL would be well within their rights as intellectual property owners to shut this site down and tell us not to play with their things. |
SSsshhhh! Don't give them any ideas!
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they can't shut this site down, because no one here is profiting, and we could claim fair use for artistic purposes.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | LFL would be well within their rights as intellectual property owners to shut this site down and tell us not to play with their things. |
SSsshhhh! Don't give them any ideas!
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they can't shut this site down, because no one here is profiting, and we could claim fair use for artistic purposes. |
No, shutting this site down would be an absurd demand, even in strictly the legal sense, not to speak of the practical. Now, perhaps there are some share files floating around that may have to be removed, but that's not the same thing. We still all have rights to free speech. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | LFL would be well within their rights as intellectual property owners to shut this site down and tell us not to play with their things. |
SSsshhhh! Don't give them any ideas!
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they can't shut this site down, because no one here is profiting, and we could claim fair use for artistic purposes. |
No, shutting this site down would be an absurd demand, even in strictly the legal sense, not to speak of the practical. Now, perhaps there are some share files floating around that may have to be removed, but that's not the same thing. We still all have rights to free speech. |
I should have clarified. It is the books I'm referring to. The stat books aren't really fair use. Those are compilations from licensed products. Profit or no, that's what they are.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Oh, right, yeah, those might be fair game.
But I'm confused over who exactly the WEG rights currently belong to. Who owns them at present? I know that LucasArts owns the game universe, but who owns WEG's SWD6? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks cheshire, et al. Good discussion points.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Whill, I'm curious as to your reasoning here. Is the presumption that officially published material is, substantively, of better quality than fan-made material?
I'm asking because I am not sufficiently familiar with the fan-based material, not because I'm critical of your point. I'm just curious. |
Yeah I didn't really explain that and it does sound like I might feel that way. I should clarify here.
Let me be perfectly clear here that I feel Gry Sarth and cheshire's d20-to-D6 stat conversions are better and more consistent than even WEG's official stats. I applaud them for their superiority to published material.
However, all stat sources are "unofficial" in my mind. Officially published and fan material both. The reason I feel that way is because MY personal versions of all of that stuff is the only official material for me. All material from any source is less than perfect and it is up to me to tweak it for my use. I update WEG, Gry Sarth & chesire, and I'm sure I would update any new D6 game's stats to my liking.
I thought the argument on this board a while back about what Obi-Wan's stats should be was quite rediculous because it is so subjective. Since I have these views, I feel all other GMs should feel self-empowered like I do to change things to their liking. It is pointless to try to argue that your personal stats job is superior to anyone else's. My stats are superior... for me only - not necessarily for anyone else.
We can share how we stats things or our game mechanics and house rules. We can discuss them, but at the end of the day it is still up to each GM how they want to run things. If my ideas inspire others to make their game like mine or to go a completely different direction, then great either way. But I ultimately don't care if any of you don't agree with my version of SW D6 because none of you are in my player group so you don't have to go by my rules. And likewise I hope and expect that cheshire doesn't mind if I personally disagree with his stat conversion of some prequel droid. It is extremely unlikely that I would ever even mention it to him.
And we can discuss RAW for the sake of understanding and interpreting what RAW is, but I hope that all GMs don't feel bound by RAW or this site's fan creations. If you don't like something, change it. It's not like RAW was brought down from Mt. Sinai chiseled in stone! NO game stats of any source are "canon" to me. And in a lot of cases, I don't even look at the fan created D6 stat conversions of WotC d20 material, nor do I actually use any conversion system to convert anything myself. I often just stat things out in D6 to my standards fresh, based primarily on the fluff text alone with my version of the D6 system and the SW universe in mind. I feel that everyone else should also feel free to personalize every game system to the group playing it if they want.
Which leads more completely into the rest of the question (I know I'm very tired this week and rambling a bit more chaotically than usual here). Because of my more personalized approach to RPGs, sometimes the fluff text and art is the most important thing about a game book (regardless of game system). I do not think that officially published material is inherently better than fan-created material, but it often is overall. Mostly because an official book is the total package, not just compilations or stat conversion PDF. Presentation is an important factor for me. (I have a thing for quality color hardback RPG books). Even if I try not to focus on reading game mechanics, d20 and other game systems even in my peripheral vision sometimes just give me a headache while a new D6 SW game would just feel more natural and comforting in my hands. And it may introduce new ideas or tweaks I like, or it may inspire me to improve something in my version of the game.
The new SW RPG could be great publications regardless of the game system used (but that doesn't mean I don't wish it to be D6 anyway). Besides, they really couldn't prevent fan material from being created and used anyway. And I already have all the fan material saved and I really wouldn't have to give it all up to get a new D6 version of the game. So I can have use fan material and official stuff so it doesn't really matter which is better or worse. I'm going to use what I want from any source, so the more RPG-related sources of various types, the better.
I hope at least some of that makes sense! 
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Last edited by Whill on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Let me be perfectly clear here that I feel Gry Sarth and cheshire's d20-to-D6 stat conversions are better and more consistent than even WEG's official stats. I applaud them for their superiority to published material.
However, all stat sources are "unofficial" in my mind. Officially published and fan material both. The reason I feel that way is because MY personal versions of all of that stuff is the only official material for me. All material from any source is less than perfect and it is up to me to tweak it for my use. I update WEG, Gry Sarth & chesire, and I'm sure I would update any new D6 game's stats to my liking. |
Well said! I heartily agree.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | However, all stat sources are "unofficial" in my mind. Officially published and fan material both. The reason I feel that way is because MY personal versions of all of that stuff is the only official material for me. All material from any source is less than perfect and it is up to me to tweak it for my use. I update WEG, Gry Sarth & chesire, and I'm sure I would update any new D6 game's stats to my liking.
We can share how we stats things or our game mechanics and house rules. We can discuss them, but at the end of the day it is still up to each GM how they want to run things. If my ideas inspire others to make their game like mine or to go a completely different direction, then great either way. But I ultimately don't care if any of you don't agree with my version of SW D6 because none of you are in my player group so you don't have to go by my rules. And likewise I hope and don't expect that cheshire doesn't mind if I personally disagree with his stat conversion of some prequel droid. It is extremely unlikely that I would ever even mention it to him. |
What? Someone would change something we did? WHY!?!? 
Seriously, I change the stats sometimes myself. What we did were conversions. I think I've been pretty honest all along that if you don't like how the conversion represents your view of how the SW continuity should work, then change it. My intention with the stats were to provide a baseline for GMs who would probably tweak things along the way. Some of those KotOR era ships were really overpowered. A few of the Clone Wars era ones could outperform Rebellion era ships. Of course I'm going tweak things.
Why didn't we change it from the beginning, it's because I had the argument that we were fans, no game designers, and we should stick to a baseline and let GMs make the call to tweak things for their own needs. Of course, since then I've started doing articles in the D6 world and even editing a D6 product. So, I guess that argument is now null and void. If I had things to do over again, I might make some changes in that respect, but all in all, I'm by no means unhappy with the whole.
In terms of disagreement, not even Gry and I always saw eye to eye. If you look at my conversion notes and then compare them to the final product, you'll see differences. When we disagreed, we handled it like mature adults, and it resulted in a long relationship where the fans got the stat blocks they wanted.
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Azai
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| You know what, I am gonna ask my brother-in-law about the copyright usage and fair use of this site. He just received his doctorate in communication, specializing in copyright law. I don't know why I didn't think to ask him from the start. I'll throw up what he says after, and will ask him to site sources of the laws. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Presentation is an important factor for me. (I have a thing for quality color hardback RPG books). Even if I try not to focus on reading game mechanics, d20 and other game systems even in my peripheral vision sometimes just give me a headache while a new D6 SW game would just feel more natural and comforting in my hands. And it may introduce new ideas or tweaks I like, or it may inspire me to improve something in my version of the game. |
Aha. So it is about the form; not necessarily the content. This explains your love of the prequels. 
| Whill wrote: | | Because of my more personalized approach to RPGs, sometimes the fluff text and art is the most important thing about a game book (regardless of game system). I do not think that officially published material is inherently better than fan-created material, but it often is overall. Mostly because an official book is the total package, not just compilations or stat conversion PDF. |
I guess that my initial reaction is different because of my experience with fan-created material. I've long been an enthusiast for Warhammer FRP where much of the fan-created material is actually really good and where the more official stuff tends to be hammered out by people who have less love and background knowledge of the gameworld. Experiences in Star Wars may differ from this, of course.
| Whill wrote: | | The new SW RPG could be great publications regardless of the game system used (but that doesn't mean I don't wish it to be D6 anyway). Besides, they really couldn't prevent fan material from being created and used anyway. And I already have all the fan material saved and I really wouldn't have to give it all up to get a new D6 version of the game. So I can have use fan material and official stuff so it doesn't really matter which is better or worse. I'm going to use what I want from any source, so the more RPG-related sources of various types, the better. |
So, here's the question: is more fan-made material produced while a particular game in print as opposed to out-of-print? Perhaps that's unknowable. SW RPG has pretty much always been in print by somebody or another, right? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is a site for WEG Star Wars fans. I'd say the number 1 factor in there being so much fan-created D6 material is because WotC made Star Wars d20 publications that included the prequels, and most of us would rather play WEG D6 so had to convert d20 to D6 to make use of it.
But yeah, WEG stopped releasing Star Wars RPG material in 1998 and then WotC published it from 2000-2010, so there have only been two years (so far) with no Star Wars RPG in publication since 1987.
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Treefrog
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: |
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So, will there be anyone who will buy the FFG version when they finally publish their first corebook?
Personally, with every version of the SWRPG that has been published thusfar, I doubt I will purchase the newest incarnation. |
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