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Melee combat against Stormtroopers
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

Okay, I'm new to SW D6 and D6 at all. Maybe that's the reason I'm unsure how to handle this:
The players character has spottet 2 Stormtroopers on his escape way in 20 meters distance. The Stormtroppers have seen the character too.
Because the players character is good at melee combat the player would like to run to the troopers and attack them with his electrostaff to knock them out with stun mode.

In terms of D6 the players character has the initiative and declares 3 actions for this round: run to the Stormtroopers, attack the first and attack the second.

Well and here is the problem. After the players characters first action he is in melee combat range, but then it's the Troopers turn. And because the players character was running to them, they can fire their blasters on point-blank. It's always deadly for the players character.

So the question is, how can the players character come close to the Stormtroopers to knock them out without he will be killed first?
I'm not talking about to sneak to the Troopers but about the rules of the combat system.
As an example, on Shadowrun we had the rule, long range weapons can't be used on close (melee) combat.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
Okay, I'm new to SW D6 and D6 at all. Maybe that's the reason I'm unsure how to handle this:
The players character has spottet 2 Stormtroopers on his escape way in 20 meters distance. The Stormtroppers have seen the character too.
Because the players character is good at melee combat the player would like to run to the troopers and attack them with his electrostaff to knock them out with stun mode.

In terms of D6 the players character has the initiative and declares 3 actions for this round: run to the Stormtroopers, attack the first and attack the second.

Well and here is the problem. After the players characters first action he is in melee combat range, but then it's the Troopers turn. And because the players character was running to them, they can fire their blasters on point-blank. It's always deadly for the players character.

"Ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." I don't see that as a problem. If I have a blaster and someone is running at me wielding a melee weapon I don't want them to use on me, I am going to try to shoot them before they can use it. If the issue is that the PC doesn't want to kill the stormtroopers, blasters have a stun setting.

Purzelkater wrote:
So the question is, how can the players character come close to the Stormtroopers to knock them out without he will be killed first?
I'm not talking about to sneak to the Troopers but about the rules of the combat system.

Since the PC is running into point blank range, the PC will have to become really good at dodging. And of course better at melee also since he will get another MAP from the reaction skill before he gets to attack with his melee weapon.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
Okay, I'm new to SW D6 and D6 at all. Maybe that's the reason I'm unsure how to handle this:
The players character has spottet 2 Stormtroopers on his escape way in 20 meters distance. The Stormtroppers have seen the character too.
Because the players character is good at melee combat the player would like to run to the troopers and attack them with his electrostaff to knock them out with stun mode.

In terms of D6 the players character has the initiative and declares 3 actions for this round: run to the Stormtroopers, attack the first and attack the second.

Well and here is the problem. After the players characters first action he is in melee combat range, but then it's the Troopers turn. And because the players character was running to them, they can fire their blasters on point-blank. It's always deadly for the players character.

So the question is, how can the players character come close to the Stormtroopers to knock them out without he will be killed first?
I'm not talking about to sneak to the Troopers but about the rules of the combat system.
As an example, on Shadowrun we had the rule, long range weapons can't be used on close (melee) combat.

Kind regards
from Purzelkater


By the rules he couldn't.. Since he has to close in at double speed for his first move, he's right in their face.. They can on THEIR action, then do a free half move backwards and shoot him..
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm right to say, the player should looking for antoher solution (and I have not missed the rules). Thank you!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a reason why a lot of those "knife v. gun" fights work best when the guy with the knife can step out of cover, rather than run at them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
So I'm right to say, the player should looking for antoher solution (and I have not missed the rules). Thank you!


He can still try it, but he would be best served trying to find cover, an alternate method to get up TO the imps to go toe to toe..

As for the issue with shooting in melee, there are no rules covering that BTB, but i have suggested someone could do a melee/brawl parry to knock the shooter's hand/weapon to the side vice do a dodge....
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the general tactic in this sort of situation is to be nonchalant and conceal the blade until you're right up on the person. There might be ways of doing a con roll, or a sneak roll to pretend that you're just going to stroll by, or call to the trooper for help until you're in melee range.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I think the general tactic in this sort of situation is to be nonchalant and conceal the blade until you're right up on the person. There might be ways of doing a con roll, or a sneak roll to pretend that you're just going to stroll by, or call to the trooper for help until you're in melee range.


Quote:
Kanan walks up to a stormtrooper sergeant

Kanan (to the stormtrooper whose face is fully hidden by his helmet): Hey, weren't we in basic training together? You look familiar.

Kanan promptly knocks the trooper out and steals his uniform

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Since you are "new" to D6 Reply with quote

By The Book, if the PC wanted to run the 20m up to the stormtroopers in order to melee attack, it would require a full round to move to melee distance. If the Stormtroopers notice the charge (do a PER check for the troopers) and decide they want to shoot the charging character in that first round, they can (each) do so, and the PC would roll a "full dodge", which is to say, his full dodge dice plus, say, 5 for a short-range shot. Though he is sprinting at the troopers (which is an action in itself), there is no MAP (multi-action-penalty) to the dodge roll, because the RAW states that you get a +1D when rolling a dodge while running. That one full-dodge roll creates the difficulty-number for the troopers to hit him with the blasters that first round.

If he doesn't like the result of his full-dodge roll, he can spend CP's (up to five of them) to gain extra dice to the evasion roll.

In the second round when the PC is finally in melee range, he would (should) declare two melee attacks (at least two) plus a dodge -- because after he takes his first swing at the first trooper, the second trooper gets his first blaster-shot against the PC. Then, assuming the PC either evades or soaks the damage from that first blaster shot, he gets his second melee attack roll against the second trooper. THEN, if he planned ahead for follow-up attacks against either trooper who might have survived that first blap, he would roll his extra melee attacks in the hopes of knocking out the still-standing troopers.

Mechanically it can be done. But you have to be prepared to spend lots of dice for it, and as garkhal noted, it would be much smarter to sneak up into better position without giving away your intent ahead of time.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this really depends on the situation and the GM. Yes it has been discussed before how the Action system and move mechanics can male it impossible to physically hit someone.

There are a couple of ways you could run it.

1. You can suggest that the player close to grapple with one of the Stormtroopers. If he makes the roll by 5+ he is able to grapple Stormtrooper #1 is such a way that Stormtrooper #2 cannot fire at him or gives him a cover modifier (+1D, +2D, maybe even +4D). Heck attach the cover modifier to how well he grapples. 6-10/+1D, 11-15/+2D, 16+/+4D.

Also in this example, if there was a difficulty for the terrain I would allow him to make both the skill checks at the same time: running and brawling, both at -1D.

2. He performs all three actions at once: running, brawling Stormtrooper #1, and brawling Stormtrooper #2. All actions at -2D. Narrate it out like you would in a movie. "Brix looks towards the two Stormtroopers, he sees them start to flex their hand around the triggers if their blaster rifles. Brix drops his shoulder and charges towards them, crossing the 20 meters in an instant. Grabbing the first Stormtrooper he kicks his legs out from under him, sending him crashing to the floor. The second Stormtrooper caught off guard attempts to level his blaster at Brix in the close quarters, but Brix is faster. Striking like a coenathian serpent he knocks the blaster from the Stormtroopers hands."

Running -2D vs Easy terrain (an open landing field, might consider this an automatic action. It does not need to be rolled, but counts as an action).
Brawling -2D vs Moderate difficulty to kick the legs out from under Stormtrooper #1.
Brawling -2D vs Stormtrooper Brawling+2D (to strike the weapon).

Another to keep in mind are two additional rules. 1. All ranged weapons have a minimum distance of 3 meters to use effectively. 2. If a character starts within 20 meters of a target, they may perform one brawling or melee action at the end of the move. This still counts as a declared action.

Just some ideas to consider.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I think the general tactic in this sort of situation is to be nonchalant and conceal the blade until you're right up on the person. There might be ways of doing a con roll, or a sneak roll to pretend that you're just going to stroll by, or call to the trooper for help until you're in melee range.


That might work had he not already been seen and being reacted to by the stormies.

Random_Axe wrote:
By The Book, if the PC wanted to run the 20m up to the stormtroopers in order to melee attack, it would require a full round to move to melee distance. If the Stormtroopers notice the charge (do a PER check for the troopers) and decide they want to shoot the charging character in that first round, they can (each) do so, and the PC would roll a "full dodge", which is to say, his full dodge dice plus, say, 5 for a short-range shot. Though he is sprinting at the troopers (which is an action in itself), there is no MAP (multi-action-penalty) to the dodge roll, because the RAW states that you get a +1D when rolling a dodge while running. That one full-dodge roll creates the difficulty-number for the troopers to hit him with the blasters that first round.


Where are you getting the "he gains a +1d to rolling his dodge if running" from? Additionally if he IS full dodging he doesn't get to move, so can't do a full round movement..

Quote:
Another to keep in mind are two additional rules. 1. All ranged weapons have a minimum distance of 3 meters to use effectively. 2. If a character starts within 20 meters of a target, they may perform one brawling or melee action at the end of the move. This still counts as a declared action.


Are those house rules shooting? As the first one is actually the Opposite of the R&E rules which generally counts shooting at someone closer than 3-5 meters as being at 'point blank' making it a very easy shot (instead of easy for short range)..
And if they are doing the full move, how are they getting a 'free attack' at the end of it BEFORE the opposition even gets to act??
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Are those house rules shooting? As the first one is actually the Opposite of the R&E rules which generally counts shooting at someone closer than 3-5 meters as being at 'point blank' making it a very easy shot (instead of easy for short range)..


This was a suggested home rule. Point blank is a stupid range. Seriously, it should be a coup de grat and done. I have been thinking about minimum distances for ranged weapons is the game for some time. Especially after a session where a wilderness trekker is in a cantina with her long rifle and shoots a gamorrean at about 10 meters. I was like, uh ... that just doesn't seem right. Especially as the person wanted to add in their scope modifier, which I said no to. Which in turn led me to think about scopes and minimum range for them to be effective.

So, no not a RAW, but a home brew that's been percolating for a while.

Quote:
And if they are doing the full move, how are they getting a 'free attack' at the end of it BEFORE the opposition even gets to act??


Okay seriously, how long have you known me and would I ever post a mechanic that gives a blatant freebie for no good reason? This was a suggestion of yet another home brew and was specifically referencing the example I had posted above it.

The player would have to state when its their turn they want to close and punch/stab the target. The GM combines the two actions into one. The player still rolls two separate skill rolls and the MAP.

The idea comes from the hole in the rules making hand-to-hand-combat pretty much useless. It is modeled after real world tests that found person within I think 20-30 feet of a trained person with a gun (law enforcement, figure Firearms 4D+2) will not be able to effectively shoot that person.

Since SW uses the metric system, I suppose we could change that distance to 15 meters, but since that falls into High Speed x2 movement (11-20 meters) it was just easier to say 20 meters, though not accurate. Could just make it easy and say if a player is within 10 meters and declares a brawling/melee attack they combine the actions, but they must pay the MAP.

And seeing as we want to talk about all the other things wrong with the system. Lets also jump on the whole 5 meter free movement. Its counts as your move but does not count as an action. So you could while within 5 meters, walk up to the target and stab/kick them and that is fine.

Combines actions, when it makes sense based on the narration the character makes, works effectively in my game.

For example, in one of my game there is a trianni martial artist. Taken the scene I gave earlier, two Stormtroopers are 20 meters away are facing off with the the character. He instinctively knows they are going to fire and he has the initiative. I look to the player and ask, "Hey Armiss, its your turn, what do you plan on doing?"

He looks at me and states, "I am going to run up and close the distance as quickly as I can and flying jump kick the first Stormtrooper then land, pivot and kick the legs out from under the second Stormtrooper."

Now depending on how I want to do this and how important the scene, I could ask him to perform all his actions at once. Running , Brawling, Brawling, all at -2D.

I could also just combine the first two actions (which is what I would probably do, though the narration is pretty epic, so I might do all three, then again I may give a +1D badd@ss bonus for doing something truly epic) and let him perform the second brawling on Action 2. This would give Stormtrooper #2 a chance to fire at the martial artist at close range and Armiss would want to dodge, so he would incur yet another MAP as its now four actions or he could burn his last action and do a reactive dodge with no further MAP penalty.

Example 1: Running vs easy terrain (GM Decides this is an automatic success but costs an action and the character move for the round). Brawling -2D vs Moderate to flying kick the first trooper. Brawling -2D vs Moderate to kick the legs out from under the second trooper.

Example 2: Running vs easy terrain (GM Decides this is an automatic success but costs an action and the character move for the round). Brawling -2D vs Moderate to flying kick the first trooper. Second trooper performs his first action and shoots at short range at Armiss.

Armiss now how has two choices:

A. He decides to reactive dodge[\i] keeping his last action. This incurs an additional -1D MAP. He makes a dodge skill roll at -3D. At the beginning of Action two he declares he is going to kick the legs of the trooper out from under him, Brawling -3D vs Moderate.

or

B. He can perform a [i]reactive dodge
without incurring an additional -1D MAP but he has to forgo all further actions that round.

Example 3 (RAW): Armiss declares three actions and his first action is to close with one of the Stomtroopers. Its the Stormtroopers turn. They both shoot at Armiss at short range.

Armiss now has two choices.

A. He can reactive dodge incurring an additional MAP and would roll his dodge at -4D (whats the point, even with dodge 6D he is unlikely to roll better than the range difficulty of 5 and even if he did rolled average it would be 7-8, whoopee). He then performs his Action 2 and kicks the first Stormtrooper, then performs his Action 3 and kicks the legs out from under the second Stormtrooper.

or ...

B. He can perform a reactive dodge with no additional MAPs but has to forego his remaining two actions.

We have not even talked about how the Stormtroopers could on Action 1 just take a 5 meter step away and shoot him and that's essentially a combined action, but its allowed per RAW.

Between these two examples the first one I suggested flows a whole lot better, is faster to adjudicate, is narratively based, makes sense, and a whole bunch more epic.

The second example per RAW, its clunky, its slow, it does not follow the narrative, its not epic, its not fun and the martial artist once again gets boned.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:

This was a suggested home rule. Point blank is a stupid range. Seriously, it should be a coup de grat and done. I have been thinking about minimum distances for ranged weapons is the game for some time. Especially after a session where a wilderness trekker is in a cantina with her long rifle and shoots a gamorrean at about 10 meters. I was like, uh ... that just doesn't seem right. Especially as the person wanted to add in their scope modifier, which I said no to. Which in turn led me to think about scopes and minimum range for them to be effective.


Now THAT i agree with. If you have someone closer than 10m, you AIN'T getting the scope added in, as the time to line up the shot through the scope (and the bluuryness the target would show at that close range) wouldn't work..
However, someone with a Stormtrooper 1 blaster rifle shouldn't have an issue shooting someone say 3 meters away.. As we saw in Rogue 1 when those troopers tried shooting the blind one..

shootingwomprats wrote:
Okay seriously, how long have you known me and would I ever post a mechanic that gives a blatant freebie for no good reason? This was a suggestion of yet another home brew and was specifically referencing the example I had posted above it.

The player would have to state when its their turn they want to close and punch/stab the target. The GM combines the two actions into one. The player still rolls two separate skill rolls and the MAP.

The idea comes from the hole in the rules making hand-to-hand-combat pretty much useless. It is modeled after real world tests that found person within I think 20-30 feet of a trained person with a gun (law enforcement, figure Firearms 4D+2) will not be able to effectively shoot that person.

Since SW uses the metric system, I suppose we could change that distance to 15 meters, but since that falls into High Speed x2 movement (11-20 meters) it was just easier to say 20 meters, though not accurate. Could just make it easy and say if a player is within 10 meters and declares a brawling/melee attack they combine the actions, but they must pay the MAP.


But isn't that in essence GIVING them a freebie by letting them take 2 actions at the same time in the init order??

shootingwomprats wrote:
And seeing as we want to talk about all the other things wrong with the system. Lets also jump on the whole 5 meter free movement. Its counts as your move but does not count as an action. So you could while within 5 meters, walk up to the target and stab/kick them and that is fine.


Look at the list of other things you could potentially do for "Free" even if some might count as an action for MAP purposes.. Doing a half move doesn't seem outlandish..

shootingwomprats wrote:
For example, in one of my game there is a trianni martial artist. Taken the scene I gave earlier, two Stormtroopers are 20 meters away are facing off with the the character. He instinctively knows they are going to fire and he has the initiative. I look to the player and ask, "Hey Armiss, its your turn, what do you plan on doing?"

He looks at me and states, "I am going to run up and close the distance as quickly as I can and flying jump kick the first Stormtrooper then land, pivot and kick the legs out from under the second Stormtrooper."

Now depending on how I want to do this and how important the scene, I could ask him to perform all his actions at once. Running , Brawling, Brawling, all at -2D.


And is that something you would do for just the pcs, or is it also usable by NPCs, getting to take 2, possibly 3 actions before anyone else even gets to take a go??
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And is that something you would do for just the pcs, or is it also usable by NPCs, getting to take 2, possibly 3 actions before anyone else even gets to take a go??


That is an excellent question. The idea of combining actions depending on what the character is trying to do and fitting to the narrative I have only ever applied to the PCs as they are supposed to be pulpy and super heroic. Thinking about it I would allow it for a major NPC, not so sure about minions. As they have only 1-2 actions at best anyways.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

Where are you getting the "he gains a +1d to rolling his dodge if running" from? Additionally if he IS full dodging he doesn't get to move, so can't do a full round movement..

Not quite true. In the Blue Book it states (p.61) when a character does a full (dodge) they may only do that and make one normal speed movement that round.
Although I've just noticed that the R&E edition does say as you point out, you can't do anything else that round than the full dodge... which makes less sense to me IMO...
So either way, he can't run the full 20m while doing a full dodge, but he could make the two 10m moves while making a combat dodge.
And the +1D to dodge while running, must be a holdover from the 1st Ed game rules.[/i]
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