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1st ed combat
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klhaviation
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: 1st ed combat Reply with quote

One major difference is the combat system.

1st ed uses no initiative. All actions happen simultaneously... if one action effects another [e.g. if two characters shoot at each other at the same time] who ever rolls the higher skill roll is judged to have gone a split second earlier.

Multiple actions ocurr in later action segments. E.g. if you fired three times. And another character moved and fired. The first action phase would include your first shot.. and the characters movement... the second both shots.

Dodges are all "full dodges" meaning that you always add your dodge roll to the fires difficulty. However, each dodge counts for only 1 action segment. If you are shot at 3 times by the same person ... you have to make 3 dodge rolls, with a 1d penalty for each additional action .

This was cleaned up a bit in the rules upgrade pamphlet, adding the concept of comeat dodes and doING away with comeat segments... rules companion got really crunchy.

I prefer the original combat system as it is very interpretative... but some don't like it.

I think rules upgrade is a good compromise however between 2nd ed combat and 1st ed combat.

It is worthy to note that the starship combat system is one of the finest ever.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comeat dodes? Comeat segments? lol

I think calling all dodges "full dodges" is misleading. Dodges were dodges. Yes, every dodge added to the difficulty instead of replaced it. That's just the way reactions were done back then, and they didn't have full dodges. They were reactions and maps applied.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for breaking this down. I'm currently being an eBay vulture, circling round looking for a low price on a dying auction, in hopes of getting a cheap 1st edition rulebook and sourcebook.

I'm glad to have a few things to look out for as I read through the rules.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Thanks for breaking this down. I'm currently being an eBay vulture, circling round looking for a low price on a dying auction, in hopes of getting a cheap 1st edition rulebook and sourcebook.

May the Force be with you on that. Let us know when you get those. I bought them both at the same time the day I found out they existed in the Fall of 1987. I sold my 1e SW Sb when I got the 2e version, but I still have my original 1e RPG core book. It's worse for the wear but it has a lot of sentimental value.
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klhaviation
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to type on these touch screens...
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klhaviation wrote:
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to type on these touch screens...

Mostly with lots of cursing of the autocorrect, from my experience.
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jawa1138
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just won an auction with some first edition books, if you are still looking let me know.
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys!

I just presented myself in the other forum. I found this post (I know is quite old) because I thought it'd be the most adequate. If it's wrong, please let me know.


Right, I donīt get (very) First Edition Combat. I've read it through several times and spent hours on internet looking for examples (including this forum) and there is still something that doesnīt connect there.


I am really confused by the order of things, dodges and multiple actions. The other day I run a game, was loads of fun... but it felt extremely easy on the players so I thought I must be doing something wrong.




Right, example.

2 guys in a corridor (Good & Bad). Both got blaster skill 4D+1, dodge skill 4D, they got a blaster pistol each, they are at short range. They just happened to be there (no surprise, ambush) they encounter each other and star shooting.


Looks a bit like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
(G) -> short distance <- (B)
-------------------------------------------------------------------


COMBAT ROUND 1)

To keep it superbasic, the player says wants to fire twice. Myself controlling the bad guy say the same.

So 2 declared action each: Fire (blaster pistol at short range which has a base difficulty of 10). Penalty comes in as there is 2 shots. So each will have -1D (so will use 3D+1 for both shots). Cool, till there all fine.


Now is when I get confused.

SEGMENT 1)

It's in interest of both players to dodge to avoid being hit. Dodge doesnīt need to be declared at the beginning of the round really. If it happens, it adds difficulty to the other player's shot + can be done each segment + add further -1D to that particular dodge and all actions after (as page 12 and 14 say).

My problem comes deciding who goes first, doing what and with how many dices (due to the penalties). As there is no initiative roll.

Going to page 13 of the 1st Edition Manual got that like in this example... both actions affect each other so manual says roll and higher goes first (and the same roll is used to see if that action succeeded).


So, if I roll and my player rolls. FIRST DOUBT: if we see the results... doesnīt that contradict the dodge? You are seeing the other person results.


Anyway, say we keep it like that. So Good guy got 15 and Bad guy got 10 and they both needed basic 10 to hit the other. So Good guy goes first.
Bad guy would say that dodges now? With how many dices? As they said 2 actions in this combat round they got a -1D making 3D? Or as the dodge is a new action that's a further -1D, so that dodge gets done with 2D only?

I donīt know, let's say Bad guy gets 6 in a 2D dodge roll, that makes total of 16 difficulty for the Good guy that got 15... so the shot passes close to the Bad guy but doesnīt hit anything.

Now same segment,

Bad guy can shoot back. However he's just dodged. So that is a further -1D so he only has 2D+1 to get a 10.


However, if at the beginning I rolled a 10... I've already rolled before! So... what happens?

Or you just re-roll? In that case would it be only with 2D+1? (did a dodge, now this fire, second segment wants to fire again.. so take a penalty of -2D)


Meanwhile the bad guy's dodge comes after his first dodge. As that guy also said to shoot again (to be resolved in second segment), that dodge will be with -2D, right?





I am so sorry if I have made it very confusing. I think I am definitely missing something with the order. For example I watched a video on a further edition where a PERCEPTION roll was introduced as initiative check. With that system I can successfully cascade all actions with correct number of dices.


I hope I havenīt made it very confusing. What a Bible.... As you can see is a mixture of who goes first +dodge + penalties all together.

I am a bit desperate so any help will be appreciated Smile


May the force be with you
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yah, well, you see....

Frankly, I wouldn't do without Initiative. I don't recall what I did back in the 1E days, but there was some sort of initiative that I used just to avoid the conundrums. Even if you simply declare one side as having initiative (which is what I think I did, come to think of it...).

I hope that helps?
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Thanks for replying.

Makes sense. That's the only way I think. I have seen some posts on the Internet where they don't use an initial initiative roll but it doesn't make much sense to me. Like this example (2ndpost by Water Bob). http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-334467.html

Han Solo should have dodged? But that would straight affect the dex roll he did. (Less dice si he should roll again)



Anyway Smile. Thanks so much for your reply
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The initiative system I use on SWd6 is pretty simple - declaring actions goes from lowest PER to highest PER (roll to determine ties), while resolving actions goes from highest DEX to lowest DEX (or MEC, in the case of driving stuff or shooting with gunnery). I also usually avoid rolls for heroes vs minions - if there's 'generic' minions (a bunch of bounty hunters, a gaggle of troopers, what have you), they always lose initiative ties.

So if you've got Bib at 2D DEX and 4D PER, while Bob has 4D DEX and 2D PER, then Bob first declares (so that Bib can react to that), while Bob's action resolves first (unless Bib does something crazy, like popping a FP).

Or, a more involved example: There's also Bub, which is 3D DEX and 3D PER.

Declaration:
Bob declares first (2D PER)
Bub then declares (3D PER)
Bib then declares (4D PER)

Resolution:
Bob goes first (4D DEX)
Bub then goes (3D DEX)
Bib then goes (2D DEX)

So Bib's advantage is that he can react to what the others are doing - but his disadvantage is that he's pretty slow.
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Zarn. Sounds pretty simple and makes sense. I will give it a try on my next games.

Thanks from the UK
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Zash wrote:
I donīt get (very) First Edition Combat. I've read it through several times and spent hours on internet looking for examples (including this forum) and there is still something that doesnīt connect there.

I am really confused by the order of things, dodges and multiple actions. The other day I run a game, was loads of fun... but it felt extremely easy on the players so I thought I must be doing something wrong.

Right, example.

2 guys in a corridor (Good & Bad). Both got blaster skill 4D+1, dodge skill 4D, they got a blaster pistol each, they are at short range. They just happened to be there (no surprise, ambush) they encounter each other and star shooting.

Looks a bit like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
(G) -> short distance <- (B)
-------------------------------------------------------------------


COMBAT ROUND 1)

To keep it superbasic, the player says wants to fire twice. Myself controlling the bad guy say the same.

So 2 declared action each: Fire (blaster pistol at short range which has a base difficulty of 10). Penalty comes in as there is 2 shots. So each will have -1D (so will use 3D+1 for both shots). Cool, till there all fine.

Now is when I get confused.

SEGMENT 1)

It's in interest of both players to dodge to avoid being hit. Dodge doesnīt need to be declared at the beginning of the round really. If it happens, it adds difficulty to the other player's shot + can be done each segment + add further -1D to that particular dodge and all actions after (as page 12 and 14 say).

My problem comes deciding who goes first, doing what and with how many dices (due to the penalties). As there is no initiative roll.

Going to page 13 of the 1st Edition Manual got that like in this example... both actions affect each other so manual says roll and higher goes first (and the same roll is used to see if that action succeeded).

So, if I roll and my player rolls. FIRST DOUBT: if we see the results... doesnīt that contradict the dodge? You are seeing the other person results.

Anyway, say we keep it like that. So Good guy got 15 and Bad guy got 10 and they both needed basic 10 to hit the other. So Good guy goes first.
Bad guy would say that dodges now? With how many dices? As they said 2 actions in this combat round they got a -1D making 3D? Or as the dodge is a new action that's a further -1D, so that dodge gets done with 2D only?

I donīt know, let's say Bad guy gets 6 in a 2D dodge roll, that makes total of 16 difficulty for the Good guy that got 15... so the shot passes close to the Bad guy but doesnīt hit anything.

Now same segment,

Bad guy can shoot back. However he's just dodged. So that is a further -1D so he only has 2D+1 to get a 10.

However, if at the beginning I rolled a 10... I've already rolled before! So... what happens?

Or you just re-roll? In that case would it be only with 2D+1? (did a dodge, now this fire, second segment wants to fire again.. so take a penalty of -2D)

Meanwhile the bad guy's dodge comes after his first dodge. As that guy also said to shoot again (to be resolved in second segment), that dodge will be with -2D, right?

I am so sorry if I have made it very confusing. I think I am definitely missing something with the order. For example I watched a video on a further edition where a PERCEPTION roll was introduced as initiative check. With that system I can successfully cascade all actions with correct number of dices.

I hope I havenīt made it very confusing. What a Bible.... As you can see is a mixture of who goes first +dodge + penalties all together.

I am a bit desperate so any help will be appreciated

I'm not condoning the use of 1e rules over 2e, but I will attempt to help.

I'm not sure what your issue is with the GM and players seeing each other's result. (1) The GM sees all and knows all. (2) The results of both rolls have to be known by at least the GM to determine which shot goes first, and which shot happens first determines which shot has to be dodged first. (3) The GM can choose to roll his rolls behind a screen where the player can't see, or not. Yes, keeping your rolls behind the screen does give players the disadvantage of not knowing if the gamemaster character attacks on the PCs failed to beat the base difficulty (thus players not knowing if they even need to bother with dodging or not), but the GM's job is not to take advantage of that and defeat the characters. The GM's job is to impartially guide the story to most fun and entertaining outcome for all, and that is not just the case for 1e Star Wars but for 2e and all RPGs. For this situation, the GM can see the player rolls and base the decision for GM characters to dodge or not as a balancing effort based on how much or little help the PCs need at the time. If the PCs need a little help, you can say a GM character dodges even if the player roll didn't make the base difficulty and you really didn't even have to dodge, just to increase the GM character's MAP for the rest of the round. You really don't even have to tell the PC if the GM character dodges - You can just note the new gamemaster character MAP and the player will just know his shot missed anyway if he didn't make the base difficulty.

Let's run through your exact example:

Round 1

Declaration Segment: The player declares two actions for the PC, shooting twice at BG. You, the GM declares two actions for BG, shooting twice at the PC. They each start the round with a MAP of -1D.

First Action Segment: Player rolls for PC's first shot (at -1D). Since the outcome could effect the BG's attack, you also rolls for BG's first shot (at -1D), and the higher of these two rolls wins "initiative" for this segment.

The player rolls 15 for PC and the GM rolls 10 for BG. PC's shot happens first, and you decide BG would dodge. This is another action on top of what was declared, so this will increase BG's MAP for this dodge roll and future rolls the rest of the round, so the dodge is rolled at -2D. A roll of 6 or more will make PC's shot miss, so let's say that happened.

Now yes, the BG's roll was already made before the dodge and stands - It does not get rerolled, because the roll was made before the dodge was known to be needed and the MAP changed. If PCs shot had hit, then the BG's shot wouldn't have happened so the roll would be lost. (There is no complete soak in 1e - All successful attacks do at least stun, and all results make the character instantly fall prone and can't do anything else that round). Since the PC's shot missed, BG's original attack roll is in effect. If the PC decides to dodge, then his MAP will likewise increase to -2D for for that roll and future rolls the rest of the round...

I hope this helps. Personally, I feel the system was improved with actual initiative and so rolls don't have to be made in advance of when it takes place.
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Lord Zash
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed it helps Whill!

Perfectly explained. I was following the example with your explanations and it all made sense. Thanks! Now I know how to do it and will apply it, practice it a bit so when it comes the game I am proper fluent.


I think I will gravitate towards using some sort of initiative like suggested by Zarn. Pretty simple, it orders the round/segments and from there I cascade all actions.


Cheers guys!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 1988 Rules Upgrade, the mechanic of Haste was added (basically MAPping to get actions to happen earlier than others), and combat sequencing was revised to:

1. Declare Actions.
2. Declare Reaction Skills.
3. Roll Reaction Skills.
4. Roll Actions.
5. Calculate Damage.

And then the 1989 Rules Companion further revised it to:

1. Declare Actions and Full Reaction Skills.
2. Declare Combat Reaction Skills.
3. Roll Actions and Reactions in Order of Haste.
4. Calculate Damage as Hits Hit.

I know that I used these systems when I got them, but these seem damned alien to me looking back at them now. I'm so glad the system kept evolving because it got better!
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