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What’s wrong with the Wild Die?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At one time, in a R&E game I ran, I played the Wild Die like this.

One some quick pass/fail checks, a "6" always exploded, and a "1" meant to subtract the 1 and the highest die from the roll.

But, with normal skill checks, when a "1" would show, I'd roll a D6 behind my screen, with these results.

1-3 = Add up normally.

4-5 = Subtract 1 and the highest.

6 = Complication




This made complications much less likely to pop-up, while keeping the result possible.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
At one time, in a R&E game I ran, I played the Wild Die like this.

One some quick pass/fail checks, a "6" always exploded, and a "1" meant to subtract the 1 and the highest die from the roll.

But, with normal skill checks, when a "1" would show, I'd roll a D6 behind my screen, with these results.

1-3 = Add up normally.

4-5 = Subtract 1 and the highest.

6 = Complication




This made complications much less likely to pop-up, while keeping the result possible.


Hey you took that from my weighted tables I use for Roll20. Poopy head =)
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
At one time, in a R&E game I ran, I played the Wild Die like this.

One some quick pass/fail checks, a "6" always exploded, and a "1" meant to subtract the 1 and the highest die from the roll.

But, with normal skill checks, when a "1" would show, I'd roll a D6 behind my screen, with these results.

1-3 = Add up normally.

4-5 = Subtract 1 and the highest.

6 = Complication




This made complications much less likely to pop-up, while keeping the result possible.


Hey you took that from my weighted tables I use for Roll20. Poopy head =)


I did not! Shocked I came up with that in the 90's. Great minds think alike! Very Happy
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I did not! Shocked I came up with that in the 90's. Great minds think alike! Very Happy


Great minds indeed! Hooray beer!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: What’s wrong with the Wild Die? Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:

I dunno. I just think that'd get kinda annoying. Maybe if I played 1E for a while and found it too predictable, I'd appreciate the wild die concept, but just on its face it seems like it'd introduce the possibility of drastically undercutting success.


And maybe that's part of it.. Dm's making complications pop up too often when they should actually be rare.. like 1 in 6 times you GET a 1 on that d6 wild die should be a complication.. The other 5 in six times it just does the "Take the highest other die out along with the 1 and add the rest of the die up"..

Case and point. Three battles i dm'ed during Gencon, i had two pc's get a 1 on the wild in their final battles during the same round. The first pc's roll would have failed regardless, cause even keeping the 1 and the highest other die in would have still been lower than what was needed.
The 2nd pc however, HIT on his higher #, but would miss on the lower one (iirc he had a 14 with the wild die and the other die out but a 21 with them in). SO i asked him 'which would you prefer i use, the higher or lower #..

Second table it happened, i had 3 pcs over 2 rounds get a 1 on the wild, and gave them the same option..

Most of the rest of the times where they got a 1 on the wild, it was just give me the lower total..

(and in those 2 situations above, the character was doing a quick draw and shoot on a baddie close in.. So for his complication he pulld his gun out and THREW it into the enemy's face dealing a stun result)...

Naaman wrote:
My original group got rid of the "wild die" concept, and replaced it with the "lucky die" concept. The only reason to have a die of a different color was in case that die rolled a 6, at which point, it exploded. There was no penalty for rolling a 1 on the wild die.


And to me that's wrong. Its almost like saying you only want GOOD luck, but never bad luck..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: What’s wrong with the Wild Die? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And to me that's wrong. Its almost like saying you only want GOOD luck, but never bad luck..
Well who wouldn't only want good luck? Laughing

The problem for the players arises from the fact that the NPCs also only want good luck. At which point the players may need not just good luck, but better luck.
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a GM standpoint: I love the wild die, and use the "complication" option every time I can think of something fun. Usually a small complication, just enough to increase the tension or drama in the scene (or another scene, if the pc doesn't notice right away).

It's more fun when the players succeed, but the situation still escalates, than them simply failing Smile I like this when I'm a player too!

But if things are super busy and I'm stressed out as it is keeping track of everything, I just use one of the other options...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: What’s wrong with the Wild Die? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


Naaman wrote:
My original group got rid of the "wild die" concept, and replaced it with the "lucky die" concept. The only reason to have a die of a different color was in case that die rolled a 6, at which point, it exploded. There was no penalty for rolling a 1 on the wild die.


And to me that's wrong. Its almost like saying you only want GOOD luck, but never bad luck..


The implication I was mking was that when it is an arbitrary thing, it can ruin the suspension of disbelief. Additionally, when an NPC rolls, he still gets to explode, sotherein lies your "bad luck."
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: What’s wrong with the Wild Die? Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
The implication I was mking was that when it is an arbitrary thing, it can ruin the suspension of disbelief.
Naaman, I'm not sure if I am understanding what you mean by "arbitrary?" Or how and why a mishap that occurs now rather than later would be any more or less arbitrary than any other GM decision might appear to the players. Would you please expand on this a bit?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is aimed at the type of GM that I gather garhkal seems to be: the outcome of the roll trumps the overall narrative, since the rolling is the mechanism by which results are determined.

HOWEVER, since there is no "RAW" defining when/how to introduce a mishap, we are left with GM discretion. So now we are at a crossroads: do we always introduce a mishap on a 1 in order to be "fair and consistent" or do we sometimes do it and sometimes not,at the whim of the GM? It essentially equates to the GM having a 1/6 chance to "fudge a roll" in the NPC's favor when it suits the story, even if the roll was otherwise a success (given the actual sum of the dice as they landed).

Arbitrary is fine with me, as long as I understand what to expect going into the campaign with regard to how rolls will be interpreted. But when I've spent a FP at the dramatically appropriate moment and on 17% of my FP use, I worry about some mishap wasting my FP (or CPs, for that matter), its a bit of a let down cinematically.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Naaman that gives me a better idea of your concern.

Naaman wrote:
Arbitrary is fine with me, as long as I understand what to expect going into the campaign with regard to how rolls will be interpreted. But when I've spent a FP at the dramatically appropriate moment and on 17% of my FP use, I worry about some mishap wasting my FP (or CPs, for that matter), its a bit of a let down cinematically.
I don't know that I've ever used a mishap on a FP use. That seems unstarwarsian to me.

For experienced characters with 3+ Force Points and good skill levels the usual outcome for a 1 on the wild die was to remove the 1 and the highest die from the total. So for a Force Point use there were two possible outcomes when a 1 was rolled on the Wild Die.

1. The total was high enough to succeed despite losing the 1 and another die. You succeed.

2. The total was too low to succeed. Simple failure.

For inexperienced characters who typically have only 1-3 Force Points and lower skill levels it seems too cruel to penalize their rare Force Point use so I would just ignore the 1 on the Wild Die and total the dice normally.

In support of my "rule" I site the Classic examples from the films of a 1 on the Wild Die, which are Han blowing his Con roll in the Death Star Detention Level in ANH and Han stepping on a branch in RotJ. In neither case do I hear any dramatic music or notice any cue that would seem to indicate that Han's player is using a Force Point. In both scenes Han seems confident, even overconfident which would equate to his player feeling like there was no need to spend a FP. So I feel like my interpretation of the Wild Die when a Force Point is used aligns with what we see in the movies. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
HOWEVER, since there is no "RAW" defining when/how to introduce a mishap, we are left with GM discretion. So now we are at a crossroads: do we always introduce a mishap on a 1 in order to be "fair and consistent" or do we sometimes do it and sometimes not,at the whim of the GM? It essentially equates to the GM having a 1/6 chance to "fudge a roll" in the NPC's favor when it suits the story, even if the roll was otherwise a success (given the actual sum of the dice as they landed).

I don't think this is just semantics: RAW defines when to introduce mishaps as GM discretion. And I wouldn't consider the "whim of the GM" to be completely arbitrary. At least it shouldn't be. The game mechanics only do so much with balancing the PCs with the challenge level of the adventures. GM experience and planning only do so much. The randomness aspect of the luck of the dice can shift the adventure towards being too difficult or too easy for the sake of a good narrative. The GM discretion in Wild Die 1 application (and general fudging) should be balancing factors towards fairness and consistency, even if over the longer term. If a GM finds that he is always choosing the Wild Die option to just let the dice add up normally because the PCs are having a rough time, maybe that is a sign that the GM needs to nudge down the challenge levels of his adventures. If the GM is always choosing to subtract the 1 and highest die because it seems to be going too easy for the PCs, then perhaps the GM should nudge up the challenge levels.

Naaman wrote:
Arbitrary is fine with me, as long as I understand what to expect going into the campaign with regard to how rolls will be interpreted. But when I've spent a FP at the dramatically appropriate moment and on 17% of my FP use, I worry about some mishap wasting my FP (or CPs, for that matter), its a bit of a let down cinematically.

Bren has some good insight on Wild Die with FPs. I'm all about opportunities for the PCs to use FPs at dramatically appropriate moments. If a FP is used at the story's final climax but the die roll barely succeeds, I would never subtract the highest die and bring the total down below the difficulty so the result is failure. That would be a huge let down cinematically. If the FP is used when it is not the final climax of the story, then I lean towards having a complication on wild die 1s. That is very cinematic, where even a successful action becomes more dramatic and possibly makes a subsequent action more difficult. I don't like seeing any FPs wasted either.
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Last edited by Whill on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

HOWEVER, since there is no "RAW" defining when/how to introduce a mishap, we are left with GM discretion. So now we are at a crossroads: do we always introduce a mishap on a 1 in order to be "fair and consistent" or do we sometimes do it and sometimes not,at the whim of the GM? It essentially equates to the GM having a 1/6 chance to "fudge a roll" in the NPC's favor when it suits the story, even if the roll was otherwise a success (given the actual sum of the dice as they landed).


Well page 74, does say that
Code:
You should use complications to help tell a more interesting
and exciting story. Complications should only happen a
couple of times in an adventure — most often during its
dramatic conclusion — and should get the players excited
and more involved in the game. When you use a complication,
the players should be asking themselves, "What do we
do now?"
Complications should be fair and balanced: they may put
characters in danger, but they shouldn't be "death traps"
with no possibility of escape. They should challenge the
characters, forcing them to be clever and courageous in
dealing with the situation.


So right there, it gives some advice on that you shouldn't be using the more than a couple of times per adventure (2-3). Being an adventure is often more than 1 game session, that should mean you don't complicate a player more than once a game day.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that in reference to a result of a 1 on the wild die? Or is it talking about plot twists in general?

Whill and Bren: I tend to agree with you both.

Nevertheless, I find 1/6 to be WAY too frequent, and, as a GM would probably never take the highest die away (I find that stupid) UNLESS that WAS the "complication."

I could also see introducing a comication on a wild die 1 when the original roll has failed by a certain margin (maybe 5 or 10).

On the other hand, if a CP is spent after the roll is made, I'd refrain from adjusting the die total, but may keep the complication (and possibly reduce it abit).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's in reference on complications for the wild die. BY the raw, the rest of that says what to do..
Code:
For the first roll only, if the wild die comes up as a 1,
the player must tell the gamemaster. The gamemaster
can choose one of three options:
• Add up the dice normally.
• Total up the skill dice normally to see if the skill
roll succeeded, but a "complication" occurs. (See "Complications"
below.)
• Subtract the one and also subtract the highest
other die.


So the remove the 1 and the highest other die is a core part of the wild die.. Complications only occur if the roll succeeds even if you total it all up without removing anything. If you add it up normally but it still fails, there's no complication.
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