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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:10 pm Post subject: Fire Control & Speed Factors |
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I discussed this here, but in the interests of staying on topic, I thought it deserved its own thread.
The original concept was jmanski's... | jmanski wrote: | | Characters using one or more move are +1d to hit in my game. |
I've put some thought into expanding the concept, and have come up with the following modifiers:Characters using one or more Moves are +1D Difficulty to hit.
Characters moving All-Out are +2D Difficulty to hit.
Characters moving toward/away from the shooter (as defined by Fire Arcs) are -1D Difficulty (applied to existing Movement modifiers).
I'm also considering what I'm calling a Speed Factor Modifier, based on the Speed Factor rule on page 8 of Mini-D6. The short version is that, depending on what form of drive a character or vehicle is using, there will be additional penalties to accuracy. The base formula looks like so:Walking = 0D
Vehicle = +2D
Aircraft = +5D
Space = +10D
These modifiers would only be applied to interaction between combatants using different drive modes. However, unlike Scale Modifiers, the penalties would apply in both directions. This means that, for example, a vehicle attempting to shoot at a Walker would suffer a +2D Difficulty Modifier, and a +3D modifier when shooting at an Aircraft.
This can be somewhat offset by declaring that the Fire Control systems on a weapon can be used in multiple environments. The cannon on an aircraft, for example, could include both Aircraft and Vehicle firing modes, so that the cannon may engage either ground vehicles or aircraft without penalty (and reduced penalties for walkers and characters on foot).
Anti-orbital weaponry like the ion cannon could be designated purely as Space, which would greatly penalize them when attempting to engage targets in atmosphere, and so on and so forth.
I'm still shaping the possibilities for this in my head, but I figured I'd put it out here for discussion.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman, this reminded me of our debate here regarding TIEs targeting characters on the ground. With this rule, a TIE with a Fire Control system designed exclusively for space and atmosphere combat would be looking at an additional 5D modifier against their Gunnery when trying to target a character scale target on foot, not counting any Cover modifiers.
Just a thought.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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So, the discussion here jump-started some ideas I'd had but never really codified. That, in turn, led me to reconsidering what I wrote here. So, I figured I should combine and update it all into a single post.All ships and vehicles receive a bonus to avoid being hit while moving. This can either be applied on its own or combined with any reaction rolls made by the pilot. To generate the bonus, apply the ship/vehicle's Space or 1E Speed Code to the following table:2E Move (Space Units) = Speed Code (Velocity Modifier)
3; 10 km/h = 1D Walk (0D+2)
5; 15 km/h = 1D+2 Walk (1D)
7; 20 km/h = 2D Walk (1D)
8; 25 km/h = 2D+2 Walk (1D+1)
10; 30 km/h = 3D Walk (1D+2)
14; 40 km/h = 3D+2 Walk (2D)
18; 50 km/h = 4D Walk (2D)
21; 60 km/h = 4D+2 Walk (2D+1)
25; 70 km/h = 5D Walk (2D+2)
26; 75 km/h = 5D+2 Walk (2D+2)
28; 80 km/h = 6D Walk (3D)
30; 90 km/h = 6D+2 Walk (3D+1) / 0D+2 Surface (0D+1)
35; 100 km/h = 7D Walk (3D+2) / 1D Surface (0D+2)
45; 130 km/h = 7D+2 Walk (4D) / 1D+2 Surface (1D)
55; 160 km/h = 8D Walk (4D) / 2D Surface (1D)
70; 200 km/h = 8D+2 Walk (4D+1) / 2D+2 Surface (1D+1)
80; 230 km/h = 9D Walk (4D+2) / 3D Surface (1D+2)
90; 260 km/h = 3D+2 Surface (2D)
105; 300 km/h = 4D Surface (2D)
115; 330 km/h = 4D+2 Surface (2D+1)
125; 360 km/h = 5D Surface (2D+2)
140; 400 km/h = 5D+2 Surface (3D)
150; 430 km/h = 6D Surface (3D)
160; 460 km/h = 6D+2 Surface (3D+1)
175; 500 km/h = 7D Surface (3D+2)
185; 530 km/h = 7D+2 Surface (4D)
195; 560 km/h = 8D Surface (4D)
210; 600 km/h (Space 1) = 8D+2 Surface (4D+1) / 0D+2 Flight (0D+1)
225; 650 km/h (Space 2) = 9D Surface (4D+2) / 1D Flight (0D+2)
260; 750 km/h (Space 3) = 9D+2 Surface (5D) / 1D+2 Flight (1D)
280; 800 km/h (Space 4) = 10D Surface (5D) / 2D Flight (1D)
295; 850 km/h (Space 5) = 10D+2 Surface (5D+1) / 2D+2 Flight (1D+1)
330; 950 km/h (Space 6) = 11D Surface (5D+2) / 3D Flight (1D+2)
350; 1,000 Km/h (Space 7) = 3D+2 Flight (2D)
365; 1,050 km/h (Space 8) = 4D Flight (2D)
400; 1,150 km/h (Space 9) = 4D+2 Flight (2D+1)
415; 1,200 km/h (Space 10) = 5D Flight (2D+2)
435; 1,250 km/h (Space 11) = 5D+2 Flight (3D)
450; 1,300 km/h (Space 12) = 6D Flight (3D)
470; 1,350 km/h (Space 13) = 6D+2 Flight (3D+1)
485; 1,400 km/h (Space 14) = 7D Flight (3D+2)
505; 1,450 km/h (Space 15) = 7D+2 Flight (3D+2)
520; 1,500 km/h (Space 16) = 8D Flight (4D) The Bonus is then modified based on the target's orientation to an attacker, and its own Move Level that round:Shooter is in target’s Front or Rear Fire Arc = -1D
Target and shooter are moving toward each other = +1D
Target and shooter are moving the same direction = -1D
Target is moving at Cautious Speed = -1D
Target is moving at High Speed = +1D
Target is moving All-Out = +2D In addition, Fire Control systems are generally optimized for use against targets in specific environments, and receive penalties when attempting to engage targets outside of their scope:Walking = 0D
Surface = +3D*
Flight = +7D*
*Double for Races or Duels. These penalties apply in either direction, so an aircraft attempting to fire at characters on foot suffers a -7D penalty. Of course, many Fire Control systems are equipped to engage targets in a variety of environments, which will be listed in the individual Fire Control stat.Example: Fire Control: 2D (Vehicle/Space/Atmosphere) As such, when calculating the "Speed Scale" penalty, use the closest value when determining the modifier.Example: The weapon from the previous example wishes to fire at a Walking target, but the closest available targeting mode to that is Vehicle. As such, the weapon suffers a -3D penalty. Weapons with Fire Control values can be modified to accept new "Speed Scale" programming with relative ease, so long as the weapon has the range and capability of operating within the environment in question.
EDIT: Added the expanded Speed Code / Velocity Modifiers.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon May 08, 2023 2:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It's a good start. |
Some of these modifiers might be applicable in other applications, like the tractor beam rule. Adding +1D to the Speed Code if you're going All-Out would increase your chances of breaking the beam, but would also increase the chance of damage to your ship.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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If it is worth it, I recently ran a game in atmosphere where capital ships were firing at landspeeder scale targets... it was nearly impossible to hit them even without speed modifiers. My characters sent out their TIE fighters to hit the speeders (repulsortanks) and even they were hard pressed to hit. Conversely, the speeders have a hard time even getting the TIE fighters in range and when they did, they posed little threat, even to lowly TIE fighters with 2D hull.
I actually thought the increased difficulty was appropriate, but that was based on scale factors alone.
If I had applied my speed modifiers, which I had posted on another thread recently, it would not have affected the higher scale shots, just made it harder for the speeders to hit the starfighters.
I am not a fan of modifiers based on speed level, as there is an extreme range between cautious and all-out speeds for ships with Space 1 and Space 12. I prefer modifiers based on flat distance travelled.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | If it is worth it, I recently ran a game in atmosphere where capital ships were firing at landspeeder scale targets... it was nearly impossible to hit them even without speed modifiers. My characters sent out their TIE fighters to hit the speeders (repulsortanks) and even they were hard pressed to hit. Conversely, the speeders have a hard time even getting the TIE fighters in range and when they did, they posed little threat, even to lowly TIE fighters with 2D hull. |
For that, I would suggest using my Quick Blast Radius rules to simulate how even a near-miss from a Capital-grade weapon can still kill a speeder, provided it hits close enough to catch said speeder in its blast radius. This is even usable in space if you're amenable to using the Turbolaser FLAK Mode I've theorized. At the moment, I'm thinking that FLAK Mode requires a Sensor Lock-On the designated target, but any FLAK blasts will detonate in close enough proximity to the target that they have a reasonable chance of hitting for some damage.
| Quote: | I actually thought the increased difficulty was appropriate, but that was based on scale factors alone.
If I had applied my speed modifiers, which I had posted on another thread recently, it would not have affected the higher scale shoots, just made it harder for the speeders to hit the starfighters.
I am not a fan of modifiers based on speed level, as there is an extreme range between cautious and all-out speeds for ships with Space 1 and Space 12. I prefer modifiers based on flat distance travelled. |
The problem I've run into is that method necessitates a lot of math that can drag down gameplay at a time when it should be as streamlined as possible.
The thing I like about Speed Modifiers is that it also nicely represents the Difficulty of hitting a fast-moving target with relatively short-ranged weapons. A group of PCs, for example, receive a +6D Scale bonus to hit a TIE Fighter trying to strafe them, with no off-setting penalties for how fast the TIE is moving, and no guidance from WEG as to what Difficulty such a target would be in the first place (as in, if your blaster rifle has a 300-meter maximum range, at what point is the TIE Fighter "in range", and how close does it get as its making its attack). Adding a 5D modifier in the TIE's favor to represent the Difficulty of trying to hit a fast-flying target.
When it goes the other direction, my explanations are a little less solid, but one strong candidate is that Fire Control isn't as capable of differentiating surface targets since their signature is mixed in with all the ground clutter.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Posts: 440
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | For that, I would suggest using my Quick Blast Radius rules to simulate how even a near-miss from a Capital-grade weapon can still kill a speeder, provided it hits close enough to catch said speeder in its blast radius. This is even usable in space if you're amenable to using the Turbolaser FLAK Mode I've theorized. At the moment, I'm thinking that FLAK Mode requires a Sensor Lock-On the designated target, but any FLAK blasts will detonate in close enough proximity to the target that they have a reasonable chance of hitting for some damage. |
I really like this idea.after all, a turbolaser blast should be a bombardment, not a super tight and focused precision bean. I'll check this out!
| CRMcNeill wrote: | The problem I've run into is that method necessitates a lot of math that can drag down gameplay at a time when it should be as streamlined as possible.
The thing I like about Speed Modifiers is that it also nicely represents the Difficulty of hitting a fast-moving target with relatively short-ranged weapons. A group of PCs, for example, receive a +6D Scale bonus to hit a TIE Fighter trying to strafe them, with no off-setting penalties for how fast the TIE is moving, and no guidance from WEG as to what Difficulty such a target would be in the first place (as in, if your blaster rifle has a 300-meter maximum range, at what point is the TIE Fighter "in range", and how close does it get as its making its attack). Adding a 5D modifier in the TIE's favor to represent the Difficulty of trying to hit a fast-flying target. |
I agree that the system has to be quick and easy. If it bogs down the combat too much it ruins the pace and I personally just abandon the rules and make up a Difficulty number on the spot for what feels right.
However, the system I had proposed on another recent thread had a stepped Difficulty increase based on the scale of the character and the speed of the target. What I like about it is it is a quick reference table. I am going to test it out and see how it plays. I am sure I will be tinkering, checking your rules, and possibly adapting. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | a turbolaser blast should be a bombardment, not a super tight and focused precision beam. |
IMO, it's more accurate to say that a turbolaser is a tight and focused precision beam until it hits something that causes it not to be. From that point, it more closely resembles a bombardment.
| Quote: | | However, the system I had proposed on another recent thread had a stepped Difficulty increase based on the scale of the character and the speed of the target. What I like about it is it is a quick reference table. |
I find the randomization of a Die roll is better suited to the unpredictability of a moving target. When I incorporated Speed Dice into my dogfighting rules, the idea was that the Dice were less representative of overall speed than they were of responsiveness (i.e. the ability to rapidly speed up or slow down), which is a huge factor in a dogfight. The same principle would be applicable here, in that varying both speed and trajectory make for a harder target, and that a moving target will always be harder to hit than a stationary one.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I really like this idea.after all, a turbolaser blast should be a bombardment, not a super tight and focused precision bean. I'll check this out! |
Another idea that was addressed in the Battery Dice topic is using massed turbolaser fire to increase terrain Difficulty, simulating anti-aircraft batteries firing a flak pattern. However, this idea occurred to me before I discovered the turbolaser flak-mode concept, so I'm not sure how to integrate them, or compared the results to see which mode is superior. My initial thought would be to allow flak-mode turbolasers to increase Terrain Difficulty without a Lock-On, and then allow them to specifically target fighters with the blast radius rules with a Lock-On.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I think I will look into this more after I get a full grasp on several of your other house rules I will be using. I need to introduce them gradually to my players and myself. For now, I will use modifiers to hit by speed, Shields house rules and Shields as Cover, capital ship command bonuses, and Aux Power for my next session.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I think I will look into this more after I get a full grasp on several of your other house rules I will be using. I need to introduce them gradually to my players and myself. For now, I will use modifiers to hit by speed, Shields house rules and Shields as Cover, capital ship command bonuses, and Aux Power for my next session. |
I look forward to hearing how it works out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Something that occurred to me last night is how Speed Factors would affect the use of Space Bombs. In my first draft of Space Bombs, I tried to incorporate the speed of the launching craft as a factor in both Gunnery Difficulty and the ability of the target's point defense weapons (if any) to successfully intercept the bomb. I ended up dumping the idea because it was just too math intensive for a combat round. However, if it were possible to simply add the launching ship's Speed Factor to the Gunnery roll, that would simplify things immensely. I don't have a clear idea how I want to apply this yet, but this is the direction I'm leaning.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I had previously developed a system with missile weapons where each missile had its own speed and it would start movement from any point along the travel path of the launching ship up to the ultimate location for the round then the missile would also travel at its own cautious speed. In following rounds, the missile would increase speed until it hit its target, travelled it's maximum range, or ran out of fuel.
I used missiles in this way for several games (also using the my own lock-on rules) most for starfighters doing bomb runs on capital ships. It provided the chance for the capital ships to try to shoot down the missiles with their point defense lasers before hitting their mark. It made for some exciting tense moments. I do want to look at your rules, but I don't want to get too complex to the point where I bog down the game.
I figure I will test out those rules more the space battle game after next or so. |
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| I ended up using the house rules I proposed in this thread in my game tonight. It worked well and was very easy to use with the reference table. One of my players was not happy that the speed of his ship travelling 16 Space Units at high speed did not make it any harder to hit per the RAW, so he appreciated that I came up with something to address his concern and that it was easy to use. |
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