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Fire Control & Speed Factors
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:18 pm    Post subject: Fire Control & Speed Factors Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
All ships and vehicles receive a bonus to avoid being hit while moving. This can either be applied on its own or combined with any reaction rolls made by the pilot. To generate the bonus, apply the ship/vehicle's Space or 1E Speed Code to the following table:
    2E Move (Space Units) = Speed Code (Velocity Modifier)
    3; 10 km/h = 1D Walk (0D+2)
    5; 15 km/h = 1D+2 Walk (1D)
    7; 20 km/h = 2D Walk (1D)
    8; 25 km/h = 2D+2 Walk (1D+1)
    10; 30 km/h = 3D Walk (1D+2)
    14; 40 km/h = 3D+2 Walk (2D)
    18; 50 km/h = 4D Walk (2D)
    21; 60 km/h = 4D+2 Walk (2D+1)
    25; 70 km/h = 5D Walk (2D+2)
    26; 75 km/h = 5D+2 Walk (2D+2)
    28; 80 km/h = 6D Walk (3D)
    30; 90 km/h = 6D+2 Walk (3D+1) / 0D+2 Surface (0D+1)
    35; 100 km/h = 7D Walk (3D+2) / 1D Surface (0D+2)
    45; 130 km/h = 7D+2 Walk (4D) / 1D+2 Surface (1D)
    55; 160 km/h = 8D Walk (4D) / 2D Surface (1D)
    70; 200 km/h = 8D+2 Walk (4D+1) / 2D+2 Surface (1D+1)
    80; 230 km/h = 9D Walk (4D+2) / 3D Surface (1D+2)
    90; 260 km/h = 3D+2 Surface (2D)
    105; 300 km/h = 4D Surface (2D)
    115; 330 km/h = 4D+2 Surface (2D+1)
    125; 360 km/h = 5D Surface (2D+2)
    140; 400 km/h = 5D+2 Surface (3D)
    150; 430 km/h = 6D Surface (3D)
    160; 460 km/h = 6D+2 Surface (3D+1)
    175; 500 km/h = 7D Surface (3D+2)
    185; 530 km/h = 7D+2 Surface (4D)
    195; 560 km/h = 8D Surface (4D)
    210; 600 km/h (Space 1) = 8D+2 Surface (4D+1) / 0D+2 Flight (0D+1)
    225; 650 km/h (Space 2) = 9D Surface (4D+2) / 1D Flight (0D+2)
    260; 750 km/h (Space 3) = 9D+2 Surface (5D) / 1D+2 Flight (1D)
    280; 800 km/h (Space 4) = 10D Surface (5D) / 2D Flight (1D)
    295; 850 km/h (Space 5) = 10D+2 Surface (5D+1) / 2D+2 Flight (1D+1)
    330; 950 km/h (Space 6) = 11D Surface (5D+2) / 3D Flight (1D+2)
    350; 1,000 Km/h (Space 7) = 3D+2 Flight (2D)
    365; 1,050 km/h (Space 8) = 4D Flight (2D)
    400; 1,150 km/h (Space 9) = 4D+2 Flight (2D+1)
    415; 1,200 km/h (Space 10) = 5D Flight (2D+2)
    435; 1,250 km/h (Space 11) = 5D+2 Flight (3D)
    450; 1,300 km/h (Space 12) = 6D Flight (3D)
    470; 1,350 km/h (Space 13) = 6D+2 Flight (3D+1)
    485; 1,400 km/h (Space 14) = 7D Flight (3D+2)
    505; 1,450 km/h (Space 15) = 7D+2 Flight (3D+2)
    520; 1,500 km/h (Space 16) = 8D Flight (4D)
The Bonus is then modified based on the target's orientation to an attacker, and its own Move Level that round:
    Shooter is in target’s Front or Rear Fire Arc = -1D
    Target and shooter are moving toward each other = +1D
    Target and shooter are moving the same direction = -1D
    Target is moving at Cautious Speed = -1D
    Target is moving at High Speed = +1D
    Target is moving All-Out = +2D
In addition, Fire Control systems are generally optimized for use against targets in specific environments, and receive penalties when attempting to engage targets outside of their scope:
    Walking = 0D
    Surface = +3D*
    Flight = +7D*
    *Double for Races or Duels.
These penalties apply in either direction, so an aircraft attempting to fire at characters on foot suffers a -7D penalty. Of course, many Fire Control systems are equipped to engage targets in a variety of environments, which will be listed in the individual Fire Control stat.
    Example: Fire Control: 2D (Vehicle/Space/Atmosphere)
As such, when calculating the "Speed Scale" penalty, use the closest value when determining the modifier.
    Example: The weapon from the previous example wishes to fire at a Walking target, but the closest available targeting mode to that is Vehicle. As such, the weapon suffers a -3D penalty.
Weapons with Fire Control values can be modified to accept new "Speed Scale" programming with relative ease, so long as the weapon has the range and capability of operating within the environment in question.

I've spent time thinking about this in relation to my ideas for updating the agility skill (and combining movement rolls and dodge rolls on all levels). This seems like a decent system overall, but it is more complicated and a larger chart than what I'd like to implement in my game. I'd like to come up with something smaller.

I'm thinking I am of the mind to hand wave all vehicle/ship weapon targets from needing to be modified and just letting normal scale alone (your scale rules) take care of it, writing it off as targeting computer technology being able to track movement. I checked my vehicle and spaceship damage systems and there aren't any cases where targeting computers are completely non-operational while the weapon is still fireable. Sure, a low fire control weapon could be damaged to the point of there not being any positive fire control left, but the targeting computer is still operational on some minimal level to make the weapon usable at all. I also have com-scan damage that affects fire control, but the same idea applies – the worst outcome of that is comms knocked out, sensors being inoperable (to use as in the sensor rules), and fire control of all weapons having a -4 penalty to hit. Weapons can be rendered completely inoperable, but with a certain combination of damages, the worst possible fire control penalty of a still-operable weapon is -3D-4, and I run it as a penalty to the character's attack roll so it is cumulative with the fire control bonus, meaning weapons could possible have a net "negative fire control" affecting the attack roll, which can only mean that the targeting computer is still functional to allow attacks to be attempted. If a character is desperate, a negative fire control weapon may be better than nothing. All this means the movement tracking of a weapon's targeting computer may still be working to some degree as long as the weapon is still fireable.

That would leave just characters' targets having bonuses based on their speed. The bonus for other character targets should be small because moving High Speed or All-Out should not provide a better benefit than they get from a Full Reaction, or a difficult terrain/low skill might be the only reason anyone would ever choose Full Reaction. I haven't run the numbers on this yet, but I'm thinking that once I do, I'll be able to go up from there.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Fire Control & Speed Factors Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
This seems like a decent system overall, but it is more complicated and a larger chart than what I'd like to implement in my game.

The chart basically exists as a reference for stat conversions and character creation. Any character with a Move of 10 is going to have a Velocity Modifier of 1D+2, and all of my ship and vehicle stats already have the Velocity Modifier included in the House Rule Notes at the bottom. I expect the most complicated part will be the shifting bonuses for aspect changes and relative movement. I'm open to suggestions re/ simplifying the cross-"speed scale" system; right now, my thinking is that most integrated fire control systems will have both a "Flight" and "Vehicle" module that allows them to compensate for / ignore the "speed scale" modifier. The exceptions would be something highly specialized like a point defense cannon optimized for engaging high-speed ordnance and the like.

Quote:
I'm thinking I am of the mind to hand wave all vehicle/ship weapon targets from needing to be modified and just letting normal scale alone (your scale rules) take care of it, writing it off as targeting computer technology being able to track movement.

My main issue here (and a big part of why I came up with this rule in the first place) is that Scale doesn't really account for everything. For instance, under the RAW and my Scale system, a character firing a blaster rifle at an A-Wing flying at All-Out (assuming it was flying low enough to be in range) would have a +6D bonus to hit it. Under this system, the A-Wing would have a counter-bonus of +11D or 12D (depending on aspect), so the character would instead be facing a -5D or 6D penalty to hit, which is much more in keeping with how difficult it is for a character on the ground to take out an aircraft. Granted, this is something of an extreme example, but it is apropos.

As far as targeting computers, I still think relative speed should make it harder to hit a target, thus the better a targeting computer is, the better it will be able to compensate for it. Also, under my combined system, ships will no longer be able to "dodge"; they'll have to make use of (A) Evasion (or whatever I end up calling the Starship equivalent of the Dodge Advanced Skill), so the added Difficulty from the Velocity Modifier will be offset by the reduced Difficulty of not having as much dice to use for Dodging.

Of course, most/all of my points will be moot if you aren't taking advantage of the whole system...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire Control & Speed Factors Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I'm thinking I am of the mind to hand wave all vehicle/ship weapon targets from needing to be modified and just letting normal scale alone (your scale rules) take care of it, writing it off as targeting computer technology being able to track movement... That would leave just characters' targets having bonuses based on their speed.

My main issue here (and a big part of why I came up with this rule in the first place) is that Scale doesn't really account for everything. For instance, under the RAW and my Scale system, a character firing a blaster rifle at an A-Wing flying at All-Out (assuming it was flying low enough to be in range) would have a +6D bonus to hit it. Under this system, the A-Wing would have a counter-bonus of +11D or 12D (depending on aspect), so the character would instead be facing a -5D or 6D penalty to hit, which is much more in keeping with how difficult it is for a character on the ground to take out an aircraft. Granted, this is something of an extreme example, but it is apropos.

Right. My wording may have been clunky, but I completely agree about a character shooting a character-scale weapon at an A-wing zipping by. Velocity should be taken into account for that. So I am coming up with a target velocity rule for character weapons shooting.

What I meant that I am inclined to hand wave is shooter scales above characters. A speeder shooting at an A-wing zipping by: Let normal scale alone handle that...

Quote:
As far as targeting computers, I still think relative speed should make it harder to hit a target, thus the better a targeting computer is, the better it will be able to compensate for it. Also, under my combined system, ships will no longer be able to "dodge"; they'll have to make use of (A) Evasion (or whatever I end up calling the Starship equivalent of the Dodge Advanced Skill), so the added Difficulty from the Velocity Modifier will be offset by the reduced Difficulty of not having as much dice to use for Dodging.

I'm not saying relative speed shouldn't make it harder for targeting computers to hit and I am have nothing against your concept. The premise makes sense. I just want something simpler so I am inclined to hand wave a speeder shooting at an A-wing because the speeder weapon's targeting computer could have movement tracking to compensate, leaving normal scale as the main factor.

And this is an A-wing in atmo, since a speeder will never be in space shooting at an A-wing moving Space speeds. We don't have to worry about the divide between space and non-space since spaceships in atmo "scale down" to the environment they are in (for whatever gobbledegook reason you want). So I am choosing to focus on the divide between character and non-character.

Quote:
Of course, most/all of my points will be moot if you aren't taking advantage of the whole system...

Not really. The point is a valid one. I just don't want to implement the concept across the board, so I came up with technobabble to not have to. And then with only character-scale weapons shooting at moving targets, I can come up with a simpler rule while I'm at it.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRM as always, very detailed thinking here.

I really like a lot of the concepts here - as it turns out - this is one area of my own house rules I have not firmed up - so all the comments and content here are very fascinating to take into account.

It does seem easy to blend in speed and scale - which makes sense - but the question is also about how different the scale is as well.

Now, I am trying to come up with something more simplified - but that is just personal take in trying to overall have my rules at my group's desired intersection of detail and ease of use - everyone has their own threshold.

I am working one something that might be a bit more subjective - but requires less rules and/or charts.

Not sure if useful....but

Pak's Field of View Target Movement Modifier
From the point of view of the shooter - how far does the target move across their field of view.
After Range and Scale have been factored, then modify by target's intended movement for the round.
For each full 45 deg of apparent movement from the perspective of the shooter - increase the Difficulty Level to hit by 1 level.

Example;
Turret on a ship targeting an fighter.
Beginning of round fighter declares speed.
Ship targets fighter, based on range and scale - requires Moderate to hit.
Gm looks at where ship beginning of move, and end of move.
Determines more than 45deg but less than 90.
Difficulty increased 1 level from Moderate to Difficult.


Example:
Character shoots at Awing flying over head.
Beginning of round awing declares speed - it is very fast.
Character waits until closest point - gm determines range, and adds scale - base difficulty without speed is Very Easy level difficulty.
Gm looks at distance - it is starting on one side of character and easily crossing completely other side 180degrees.
GM counts this as full four 45 arcs - and increases difficulty 4 levels, from Very Easy to Very Difficult.


Why arcs and why 45?
Because it automatically factors in the concepts of range and direction of movement - you can just look from the perspective of the shooter - and see "how much did that move" - this takes all the potentially complicated vectors and everything - and makes them simple. (not, not perfect - but simple).

heck, this even works with chases - as vehicle moving fast is difficult to hit from the side - but from the following vehicle - the relative movement is less (why dogfighting works). Again, not perfect- but simple.

I go with 45, as it is pretty easy for most folks (and the gm) to visualize, and with each being so large - there is no need to break out a protractor or anything (it is pretty obvious if over 45 or 90 etc.).
(we already have a measuring thing with 45/90 etc. on it for are starship battles, so can just take that out of the game box if necessary).

So...
Is this perfect? No.
Might this be what will work for my group's game: maybe.
Will this work for others: some yes, some no.

I know that the system presented in CRM's posts are interconnected - and within that structure speed codes and everything else already exist - so something complex fits in that structure - but then again - maybe what my group is playtesting (we have used it for about 3 months or so) can be useful in some context or something to someone.

May the wild die be with you....
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
All ships and vehicles receive a bonus to avoid being hit while moving. This can either be applied on its own or combined with any reaction rolls made by the pilot. To generate the bonus, apply the ship/vehicle's Space or 1E Speed Code to the following table:
    2E Move (Space Units) = Speed Code (Velocity Modifier)
    3; 10 km/h = 1D Walk (0D+2)
    ...
    520; 1,500 km/h (Space 16) = 8D Flight (4D)
The Bonus is then modified based on the target's orientation to an attacker, and its own Move Level that round:
    ...
    Target is moving at Cautious Speed = -1D
    Target is moving at High Speed = +1D
    Target is moving All-Out = +2D

About your system, I don't get why the target's speed level is here. The target's specific speed is already factored in the list of speeds. Speed level only means something to the character moving/piloting, not anyone else (like a shooter). Speed level is the choice of speed options the character/pilot has based on the character/ship's move score, and determines the difficulties to roll against based on the choice and the terrain. And the outcome of different speed levels vary drastically, because a character running All-Out is a lot different than a starship flying All-Out. Only the result of the target's choice of speed level and success/failure on his movement roll matters to a shooter. The result is in the actual speed chart above.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The baseline Velocity Modifier is calculated on the base Move of the Character / Vehicle. Because the Move Levels are predicated on doubling the lower value (x1/2, x1, x2, x4), it lines up perfectly with the x2=+1D formula, and thus every Move Level is a 1D step up or down from the base. Thus, a character moving at his normal Move adds his Velocity Modifier to the shooter’s Difficulty. If he’s moving at Cautious, it’s Velocity Modifier -1D (because it’s half his normal move); if Full, it’s VM +1D (double normal Move); if All-Out, it’s VM +2D (quadruple normal Move). The idea for everything in this rule is, the faster it’s moving, the harder it is to hit.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The baseline Velocity Modifier is calculated on the base Move of the Character / Vehicle. Because the Move Levels are predicated on doubling the lower value (x1/2, x1, x2, x4), it lines up perfectly with the x2=+1D formula, and thus every Move Level is a 1D step up or down from the base. Thus, a character moving at his normal Move adds his Velocity Modifier to the shooter’s Difficulty. If he’s moving at Cautious, it’s Velocity Modifier -1D (because it’s half his normal move); if Full, it’s VM +1D (double normal Move); if All-Out, it’s VM +2D (quadruple normal Move). The idea for everything in this rule is, the faster it’s moving, the harder it is to hit.

Oh, so I guess the top chart is the base move from the character or vehicle stats, not the actual move any given round after the speed is calculated. Which is why the actual speed is factored in afterward. Thanks.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Oh, so I guess the top chart is the base move from the character or vehicle stats, not the actual move any given round after the speed is calculated. Which is why the actual speed is factored in afterward. Thanks.

Exactly. The top chart is for conversion purposes only. Once you’ve used it to generate the specific Velocity Modifier for a character / ship / vehicle, you shouldn’t need to use it again.
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