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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:01 am Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | MrNexx wrote: |
What if guns can fire in their designated arcs... and in adjacent arcs with -1D fire control? |
I'd say make it -2d... |
I think it's a one-size-fits-all-except-not-really solution. For one thing, it adds complications to combined fire, since some guns will have a Fire Control 2D lower than the others. It adds in-game bookkeeping that is better dealt with before the game.
I'd go with something more along the lines of...-Starfighter mounted cannon with a Fire Arc of Front remain unchanged, as do Turret weapons.
-For Capital Ships, Front Arc weaponry may fire into the Front Arc, but is also split 50/50, with half the cannon able to fire into the Front/Left arc, while the other half may fire into the Front/Right Arc. Rear arc weaponry is the same, but reversed.
-Left and Right Arc weapons may fire into both Arcs on their side (Left/Front and Left/Rear for Left Arc weapons, and Right/Front and Right/Rear for Right Arc weapons)
-Some weapons will have greater fire arcs due to their positioning. For instance, the center-line ion cannon on the ISD (shown on the Incredible Cross Sections version) would be able to fire in the Front, Front/Left and Front/Right Arcs.
-Other variations would be decided on a case-by-case basis. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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In other words, you're dividing the side arcs in half and allowing them to engage semi-front or rear in addition to being able to shoot off to the side.
That's reasonable. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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It is, and it's how i've ran Lancer frigates in the past.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10330 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons for a Base 6 number generator like D6 to use a hex map. For one thing, it's a lot easier to calculate scatter on a 6-sided pattern when using a 6-sided D. |
I also like the general idea of hex maps for D6 games. But in air and space, there is another dimension. So with the game's existing 4 arcs, you really have 6 directions anyway: Fore, Aft, Starboard, Port, Dorsal and Ventral. This is represented well by a d6 die. Each face of the cube is a direction from the center of the cube. Of course it is difficult to represent 3-D space on a 2-D plane. WEG's old Star Warriors game had you stack the chips on pennies to represent their relative "up and down" positions from each other (with the lowest relative position being the map itself). It was a pain to adjust th pennies every round so we just simplified by playing the battles with only a 2-D consideration of the hex map itself, ignoring the third dimension of space.
With the 3D nature of space, this is why I think it is best to not map out ship locations that precisely and just be more abstract about space combat. _________________ *
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | Of course it is difficult to represent 3-D space on a 2-D plane. WEG's old Star Warriors game had you stack the chips on pennies to represent their relative "up and down" positions from each other (with the lowest relative position being the map itself). It was a pain to adjust th pennies every round so we just simplified by playing the battles with only a 2-D consideration of the hex map itself, ignoring the third dimension of space. |
It is a pain but imo the effort's worth it.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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In the FASA Renegade Legion books, their Leviathan Capital Ship combat system explains that, in the event of a space battle, ships under attack tend to maneuver into the same plain as their attacker so as to better bring their guns to bear, such that combat generally occurs on a 2D map, even if "horizontal" at the end of the battle is wildly different from where it was at the beginning. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true in the SWU. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I would think that working according to such an assumption solves 99% of RPG areal combat problems.
The only outstanding question that pops to mind off the bat is whether it matters if one engagement is happening on a different plane from another (or an intersecting plane, for that matter) Not sure if it matters, just something that sticks out in my mind. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | I would think that working according to such an assumption solves 99% of RPG areal combat problems.
The only outstanding question that pops to mind off the bat is whether it matters if one engagement is happening on a different plane from another (or an intersecting plane, for that matter) Not sure if it matters, just something that sticks out in my mind. |
In the Renegade Legion system, their only concession to it was a rule that allowed ships to occupy the same grid on a map without consequence, by saying that one ship was either above or below the other. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ebertran Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 202 Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Unpopular opinion:
I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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ebertran wrote: | Unpopular opinion:
I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces. |
That's not an unreasonable perspective, but the flipside is that using a map in this fashion will actually help by giving the GM and players a frame of reference insofar as spatial relation for combat purposes. Much easier to calculate who is where and who can shoot at what based on positioning. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Also, I found something interesting. Leviathan uses a hex map, but still uses 4 fire arcs. My tablet isn't letting me screenshot it, and I can't find it on line, but I'll see if I can do something about that the next time I'm home.
Anyway, nice to see that four fire arcs still work on a hex... _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Would the four arcs be this? |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16232 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | Would the four arcs be this? |
Oddly enough, the arcs are right (except for the inclusion of Turrets in the arcs), and the name is right, but the game is wrong. From what little I can gather, this version is surface combat oriented, using hover-warships. The FASA Renegade Legion game is space combat oriented. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:46 am Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | ebertran wrote: | Unpopular opinion:
I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces. |
That's not an unreasonable perspective, but the flipside is that using a map in this fashion will actually help by giving the GM and players a frame of reference insofar as spatial relation for combat purposes. Much easier to calculate who is where and who can shoot at what based on positioning. |
Not just that, but it can also help eliminate arguments of "No that fighter is not in your dorsal fire arc, but only the vental one", Or "That ship is too far for your torpedos but is well within the range of your ions".. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: |
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ebertran wrote: | Unpopular opinion:
I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces. |
You'll probably find that the 8 or so of us around here are roughly split down the middle on the issue, actually.
But, the purpose of the House Rules forum is to help folks figure out how to make their idea work well, even if your opinion is negative: sometimes, the constructive critique can help get the idea going in the right direction: finding that balance between simple playability and detailed-narrative rules sets. |
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