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The empire was good
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: The empire was good Reply with quote

https://www.eightieskids.com/surprising-reasons-why-the-empire-were-actually-star-wars-good-guys-headerad/?utm_content=empiregoodguysc2header
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Aelwe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It depends greatly on our own point of view" Laughing Laughing
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always known that. The Rebels just had a real good PR campaign. Remember, this all happened "A Long Time Ago", and history is written by the winners.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no not this again.

ThrorII wrote:
and history is written by the winners.


No it's not. It's written by whoever feels like writing. The winners often have other stuff to do.
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all Imperial propaganda.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, pretty blatantly written as an Imperial puff-piece.

Nothing to take seriously.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A common problem we run into with the public perception of (real world) history is this. First, someone learns that the truth is somewhat more complicated than the commonly accepted, stereotyped summary, of an event. Then they instinctively take it upon themselves to (erroneously) believe that the polar opposite of the stereotype is the truth.
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The Brain
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya well aside from the author making several mistakes about established SW canon it also uses the same arguments I've heard used to justify Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Withouta dount the empire was good.
The Empire was a bastion of good if we compare it with both the "old" republic and the later new republic.

The empire gave planets stability, growth, and safety, before the empire the galaxy was a lawless place, during it was law, sometimes draconic, but this was not all over, and after the empire again we found chaos and lawlessness.
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Narmer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Withouta dount the empire was good.
The Empire was a bastion of good if we compare it with both the "old" republic and the later new republic.

The empire gave planets stability, growth, and safety, before the empire the galaxy was a lawless place, during it was law, sometimes draconic, but this was not all over, and after the empire again we found chaos and lawlessness.


More Imperial propaganda. Particularly about the Republic.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narmer wrote:
That's all Imperial propaganda.


Yeah, I really think that it's a great piece to draw on when you are writing Imperial apologists in your game. The Empire has a massive propaganda machine, and I'm probably going to use some of these bullet points.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not saying the empire did not have a wast propaganda machine.

If we do look at the worlds featured in movies and games (canon) we see the empire rightfully so as a dictatorship, however.....

If we read the books, get into the head of the stormtroopers and the imperial not villified for the sake of movie making, we shee and read what they think.....

they think the empire is good, it created (maybe brutally but still) stability to planets, etc etc

By saying the empire is evil we generalize ALL those not evil. Tarking was a SCHUCK, Ol'Man wasn't nice and the black stoog maybe less nice.....
BUT the EMPIRE was not evil this was good, it did more good for the galaxy in 20 years than a republic did for 10 000 years.

then (in propaganda) it was toppled by terrorists.

But in all neutrality, the empire was "good" and there are more examples of legends and canon written accounts on imperial motivation where empire is seen as the salavation, making things better........than it is in the opposite direction
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried, do you root for the Empire when you watch the films? Do you hate the end of ANH because the Empire's Death Star Wars was destroyed? Do you think the Dark Side is good?

In universe, the Empire is ruled despotically by a Dark Sider who gave a single kill order to murder most Jedi. The Empire destroyed Alderaan. That cannot be justified. It was evil. Any Imperial not going awol after that is choosing to side with evil.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rebels (in the old movies) are not terrorists and wouldn't be called such until the (real world) War on Terror made us all reach for that word instinctively.

When Tarkin says that "fear will keep the local systems in line" and specifically admits that Alderaan is not "a military target" but chooses it to make "an effective demonstration", he's pretty much meeting the definition of terrorism as a tactic.

The empire did not "do more good" than the Republic, that's a whole other ball of wax though.

Contrary to modern retcons and rationalizations, Palpatine doesn't hide his status as a Sith lord trusting it to a "few" beings like his red guards. He loudly talks about in in front of HUGE crowds of troopers in ROTJ.
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The Empire destroyed Alderaan. That cannot be justified. It was evil. Any Imperial not going awol after that is choosing to side with evil.


In the ten canon films alone, just counting the Galactic Empire;

Revenge of the Sith
The widespread genocide of an entire religious order dedicated to selfless acts, based on a millennia-old grudge. The undermining of the Republic's democracy to create a fully-fledged Galactic Empire, where the Emperor is completely in-charge.

Solo
The entire planet Corellia, a prosperous shipbuilding planet, reduced to basically just being a weapons-mill for a fleet built to fight. The Empire in the process of this basically laid off an entire civilian workforce (note Han: 'My dad used to build these before the Empire shuttered CEC') that resulted in losses of livelihood and most of the planet being plunged into poverty. Escaping from the planet requires bribery of officials as we see there is no freedom of movement, so moving somewhere better is literally impossible.

We also see the widespread practice of slavery not only under the Empire's watch, but by the Empire itself as in the case of Chewbacca.

Rogue One
The massive widespread destruction of religious artefacts, punctuated by the mass destruction of a holy site and pretty much the entire surrounding moon in an early Death Star test. The Empire operates a widespread police state and locks up prisoners for trumped-up reasons. Keep in mind that the Empire built this superweapon to be used upon its own populace.

A New Hope
The arrest and (attempted) execution of political dissidents, in the case of Princess Leia. This is incidentally why the Rebellion exists; peaceful resistance to the Empire, which is basically a fascist state, is not actually all that possible.

Mostly-innocent Jawa traders and definitely innocent farmers are just plain slaughtered for simply being in the way, and it being more convenient to the Empire to just outright kill them rather than leave them alive. The charred skeletons of a couple of moisture farmers who were clearly were no threat to the Empire.

The outright genocide of the Alderaanian people using the aforementioned weapon of mass destruction.

Empire Strikes Back
The takeover and annexing of territory on a world with no actual permission, and a clear unwillingness to act in good faith.

We see instances of torture of prisoners, in the case of Han Solo. Not even as interrogation. It's explicitly just to make him and Leia feel pain. A dangerous and mostly-untested hibernation procedure is also tested on him to make sure it won't kill another person.

Return of the Jedi
Oh look they built another weapon of mass destruction.

We also see that the Empire's destruction is literally celebrated galaxy-wide in the Special Edition. At the very least there are celebrations on Coruscant, Naboo, Bespin, and Tatooine.


And that's not mentioning stuff from the EU or Rebels that goes into much greater depth on just how evil the Empire is. It's worth noting that there's an entire section of the Essential Atlas devoted to listing Imperial Atrocities on dozens of worlds. They include;
  • Six counts of genocide
  • Thirty-two counts of mass murder of civilians
  • Twelve counts of deliberate environmental destruction
  • Fifteen counts of mass enslavement
  • Seven counts of other systemic basic rights violations

And this is just what we know of.

I don't think you should even need to ask the question as to whether the Empire's evil. They pretty obviously are.
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