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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, Enterprise (that I have watched) seems to be broken down into

Season 1: Suliban and Temporal Cold War
Season 2: General Star-Trekkery
Season 3: Xindi and the Delphaeic Expanse

Season 1 is mostly general star-trekkery too. When I watched the whole series and looked back at all the episodes, I seem to remember thinking there was about the same number of Temporal Cold War episodes in Seasons 1 and 2. The entire Season 3 Xindi arc is part of the Temporal War and then they completely resolved it in the first two episodes of Season 4, never to be referred to again. Once past that, ENT s4 was really good except for a couple stinker episodes.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched most of Deep Space Nine last year for probably the fourth time (and the four orignal seasons of Babylon 5 this year) and it really does hold up very well.
To my great surprise, I actually liked the early seasons a lot more than the later ones. The storylines about the Bajorans rebuilding their planet, the Bajorans and Cardassians settling into a new relationship, and the Cardassian politicians trying to take back power from the military were great. And the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant was a cool concept. Sadly, all of them were unceremoniously dropped with the Dominion War, which turned the whole show into a grim war series. That's not really what Star Trek is about. The only thing that I really enjoyed about the last three season was all the Klingon stuff, but I actually gave up trying to watch every episode during season 6 and only watched a few more that I remember as being particularly interesting.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Timeless_(episode)

I'm on Season 5 of Voyager, and I just wanted to state that this is one of the handful of really good episodes I've seen of this show. It is a time travel episode but the only thing that goes back in time is information. Levar Burton directed, and also guest starred as Captain Geordi LaForge. Well done.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Trek/Voyager Reply with quote

It is finished.

Whill wrote:
TV Series
1. The Next Generation
2. Enterprise
3. The Original Series
4. The Animated Series
...
Voyager *
* LIKE: The Doctor, Chakotay
* INDIFFERENT: Paris, Torres, Kim, Kes
* DISLIKE: Tuvok, Janeway, Neelix


Voyager
* LIKE: The Doctor, Seven, Chakotay, Torres, Janeway, Tuvok
* OK: Paris, Kim, Barclay
* DISLIKE: Neelix, Kes

So I finished Voyager last night! The character appreciation for most characters went up by the end. The only one that went down was for Kes. I'm still not sure why, but I just found her annoying so it was a plus when she left. Neelix stayed annoying to the end. I thought for sure they would have Neelix evolve out of his racism but no, he still called Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan" in his send-off episode. And I never cared for the character of Barclay before Voyager but he ended up tolerable.

My main issue with Janeway was always something superficial, her voice. In 1995 I remember thinking "grandma voice" so the voice seemed too old for the character. Now I realize she has a heavily cigarette-damaged voice (not as bad as Leonard Nimoy's though). I got used to it and most of the time didn't notice. Overall, I like Janeway as a character, more than Sisko. It is weird that they are making an animated show with her voicing a hologram character based on Janeway from her time in the Delta Quadrant.

Seven was one of my fave characters on the show, but it did grow a bit tiresome that there were so many Janeway-Seven conversations. I eventually grew to like Tuvok more and I feel that Tuvok kinda got the shaft when Seven came on board. I do appreciate that they did try to develop the plot of the episodes leading up to the finale to set-up the finale, but the Seven-Chakotay came out of nowhere and still felt tacked on. I never picked up on any hints that she harbored this physical attraction to him in the years leading up to the final few episodes. It wouldn't be as big of deal if they didn't include that as part of the drama of the final episode.

I think Kim got the shaft by never getting promoted from ensign. Paris was drafted out of prison and got the rank of lieutenant. During the series he got demoted to ensign for a time and then re-promoted to lieutenant, all the while Kim stayed ensign. And I do not understand with crew attrition, how the crew complement increased over time. They lost a lot more than they picked up. And all Treks are guilty of this to an extent, but Voyager was the worst with any bridge crew member has any function on the ship.

I thought the final episode was a great idea for a finale but it wasn't as dramatic as it should have been so it was a bit of a letdown. I think it sucked that Torres had to give birth during the climax instead of do something dramatic in the engine room.

Overall, I liked Voyager better than Deep Space Nine, but not leaps and bounds better. I will never own either of these series and never watch them again, other than maybe a very few select episodes (but maybe not). Both series had great premises but neither completely lived up to their potentials. Although I grew to appreciate them more than when I first saw the pilots way back then, viewing the entire series really only confirms my initial decisions to not follow them.

I had dropped out of Star Trek for years and getting back into it, I was bombarded by Trek fans ridiculing my fandom because I hadn't even seen these two shows, so how could I possibly consider myself a real fan? Well, send me my fan card because I've spent about 250 hours of my life I'm never going to get back on DS9 and VOY. I had already watched Enterprise before these two because I had more interest in it, and I do definitely like it better than these two shows (It actually got better as it went along).

So I am finally all caught up with what I am calling "Legacy Trek" — Star Trek before the re-imagings (TOS reboot films and current TV series). Below are my rankings for those series. I changed it to live-action and removed the animated series because I may enjoy the animated series more than DS9 or Voyager (TAS has original cast voices and it is much shorter), but the cartoon was so cheesy that that would come off as bashy.

Trek Legacy Live-Action TV Series
1. The Next Generation
2. Enterprise
3. The Original Series
4. Voyager
5. Deep Space Nine

I have already watched the first two seasons of Discovery (which were awesome), so I still have Picard s1 and Discovery s3 to be completely caught up on Trek. And since I rewatched the 24th century films where they fell in the chronology, sometime I will re-watch Nemesis (I swear really for the last time this time) and ST09 (for Spock-Prime's future - I understand that the destruction of Romulus factors into Picard's background). But there are some other things I want to watch before I subscribe to Paramount+ and continue TV Trek.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on getting through it all!

I have many more thoughts, after reading through all four pages on this thread, but I'll post those at a later time.

BTW, I think it's ridiculous of anyone to decide for anyone else what constitutes a fan or not. I get that people get upset when people don't try something (I have a friend who is a HUGE Trek fan who on principle will never even glimpse Discovery), but to each their own.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly haven't really cared for Discovery much. But, I did enjoy Picard.

Next Gen will always be my favorite. I like Voyager, DS9, and Enterprise about equally. As for the original show, I haven't been able to finish watching it... I do like the movies they did, though.

We all have our own taste when it comes to media and entertainment. I never would have revoked your fan card for not having seen the missing series, but I still would have wondered what turned you off.

My wife always made fun of me for liking DS9, until she finally sat down and watched it with me. Aside from a couple of things here and there, she ended up enjoying it quite a bit.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't tell people they aren't true Trek fans for not watching Discovery but I do tell people they shouldn't bash it without watching it. And I wasn't going around bashing Deep Space Nine and Voyager just because I wasn't excited enough about their first seasons to follow the shows back then. They didn't ruin me on Trek because I enjoyed Enterprise after skipping DS9 and VOY the first time. I enjoyed the reboot films.

I gave Discovery a chance and loved it right off the bat so continued with it. The first season was so good I completely ignored the prime timeline and just enjoyed it for its own sake. I felt that the second season really tied into the rest of the franchise and resolved any continuity concerns. I'm less excited about Picard because of severe 24th century fatigue, and I think it destroys a lot of my head canon. But I'm going to give it a chance because the first two seasons of Discovery were so good. This is a new era for Trek TV.

And regardless of anyone defining my fandom, no one can say I didn't give DS9 and VOY a chance. I watched all 14 seasons! It took me years to get through. A lot of people told me DS9 gets a lot better in the Dominion War, but for me it didn't get much better. There were a lot of non-war episodes during that time period, and war episodes didn't always include a lot of battles or action, and the battles/action scenes were often brief when they did appear. It was a pretty boring "war" in my opinion. But I stayed with it until the end.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still a bit behind in Discovery, but I watched all of the post-TAS Trek over the last few years... DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise got steamrolled pretty quickly.

Of those, I think Enterprise was my least favorite... too much thinly veiled modern jingoism, and they got real ugly in season 3 (which had some of the neatest parts... the "pocket galaxy" they were in was a neat idea, but I felt that the actions of the crew were at odds with Trek).

Voyager could have been my favorite, but it felt like the squandered so much of the cast. Chakotay had nothing to do. Paris and Kim and Torres all faded into the background. As others said, it became the Seven of Nine show, but that can't really be faulted on Jeri Ryan... her arc as Seven was fantastic, and she could do some fantastic switches between stone-faced and emoting.

DS9 had its rough patches, and I think they did Ezri Dax wrong, and Terry Farrell worse, but I thought the stories remained good, for the most part. If TNG was about the development of the Klingons, then DS9 was about the development of the Ferengi as a consistent plot thread... and the idea that Rom became Grand Nagus amuses me greatly.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dynamic between Odo and Quark was one of my favorite aspects of the show. I also enjoyed that Chief O'Brien got a chance to shine a bit.

You can't forget about the development of the Cardassians!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Trek was probably my second true franchise love, after Planet of the Apes. That began around 1976, and by 1977 SW had replaced it. But I remember being in love with The Motion Picture when it came out, enough that for a time it leap-frogged SW and made Trek my fave again. [nowadays TMP is one of the lesser movies; at the time I was just starved for Trek]

I've watched each live action movie and series as they've come out and enjoyed them, some more than others. To this day, though, I've never watched all of TAS and I only watched a single episode of Lower Decks.

If I had to rank them, I would probably do so in this order:

1) TOS
2) TNG
3) Picard
4) DS9
5) Discovery
6) Voyager
7) Enterprise

Agree with many of the sentiments expressed in these threads, like how Ensign Kim should have been promoted.

I thought the Dominion War rocked, though I imagine it's different binge-watching than it is watching episodes waiting a week for the newest segment (or months between seasons).

I agree that Leeta is super hot (the dabo girl who married Rom). I was fortunate enough to hang out around Chase Masterson a bunch one weekend at a convention (she was dating a friend of mine).

I too enjoyed the Kelvin movies, and found they were fun movies. From my perspective many Trek fans are purists or very particular about their likes and dislikes, and I know it's en vogue to hate on them, but for the most part I find them pretty entertaining. It's actually pretty amazing that we have so much Trek that fans can pick and choose what they do and don't like.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
It's actually pretty amazing that we have so much Trek that fans can pick and choose what they do and don't like.

True dat. There is plenty of Trek that I do love, despite all the Trek I don't. I seem to be in a severe minority as far as DS9 goes. Most Trek die hards I hear from love it.

DougRed4 wrote:
I thought the Dominion War rocked, though I imagine it's different binge-watching than it is watching episodes waiting a week for the newest segment (or months between seasons).

I couldn't tell you if binge-watching would be different. I rarely ever watched an a full single episode in one sitting. I normally only watched Star Trek on my half-hour work lunch breaks, M-F. Which means I watched an average of about two episodes a week. And I tried to watch DS9/VOY in roughly chronological order, which means that for the five seasons of the two shows that overlapped, I was going back and forth between the two shows kinda like a fan who watched both shows back then (so often I only watched one episode of each show a week). In retrospect, that was probably a bad call. With Voyager mainly taking place in the Delta quadrant and DS9 mainly taking place in the Alpha and Gamma, it is not like the continuity of either show would effect the other much. As I recall it didn't, just like the TNG movies during these shows were hardly relevant to the shows. However, I am pretty sure that even if I did just go through one show completely before the other, or even if I actually "binged" the shows (which I never do in general), it wouldn't have greatly improved my reactions to them. Glad you enjoyed DS9 more than I did.

DougRed4 wrote:
I too enjoyed the Kelvin movies, and found they were fun movies. From my perspective many Trek fans are purists or very particular about their likes and dislikes, and I know it's en vogue to hate on them, but for the most part I find them pretty entertaining.

Well, it may be en vogue among purists to dislike the Kelvin films but a lot of people loved them because they are the top three grossing Trek films, by far. My favorite two Trek films overall are the first two Kelvin films. I enjoyed the last one too, but unfortunately they made destroying Enterprises trite by destroying this one early in the film and replacing it at the end of the very same movie.

Despite multiple sequels in development over the years, it has recently been back in the news that a fourth Kelvin film is in the works.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fourth Kelvin film is in the works? I thought they announced in 2019 that there would be no more Kelvinverse films. Can you shed any light on this, Whill? What have you heard?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
A fourth Kelvin film is in the works? I thought they announced in 2019 that there would be no more Kelvinverse films. Can you shed any light on this, Whill? What have you heard?

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-next-star-trek-movie-has-a-stardate-in-2023-1846652498

I had only seen headlines so just read up a bit. Unfortunately I seem to have stumbled across some spoilers for Picard and Discovery s3 along the way, but those aren't in the above webpage. So apparently Paramount has announced an untitled Star Trek sequel release for June 9, 2023. However there seem to still be multiple scripts in development so everything else is speculation. The next film may or may not be set in Kelvin timeline. I guess there is a possibility that they will for the time release a Star Trek movie not based on TV characters and instead be a completely new ship and crew.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Trek/Voyager Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It is finished.
...
Voyager
* LIKE: The Doctor, Seven, Chakotay, Torres, Janeway, Tuvok
* OK: Paris, Kim, Barclay
* DISLIKE: Neelix, Kes


For me, likes was the doctor, torres and Paris..
Dislikes were kes and chakote
Ok were kim, seven and janeway..

Like many i disliked how they never really did anything with Kim, rank wise, though they did have a # of plots of him falling in love..

Whill wrote:
My main issue with Janeway was always something superficial, her voice. In 1995 I remember thinking "grandma voice" so the voice seemed too old for the character. Now I realize she has a heavily cigarette-damaged voice (not as bad as Leonard Nimoy's though). I got used to it and most of the time didn't notice. Overall, I like Janeway as a character, more than Sisko. It is weird that they are making an animated show with her voicing a hologram character based on Janeway from her time in the Delta Quadrant.


I never knew her throat had ciggy damage, but it did remind me of some of the more 'graiting' voices i've heard, through out the years.. And i agree, she was much better than sisco. NO WHERE near as good as kirk or Picard though.

Whill wrote:
Seven was one of my fave characters on the show, but it did grow a bit tiresome that there were so many Janeway-Seven conversations. I eventually grew to like Tuvok more and I feel that Tuvok kinda got the shaft when Seven came on board. I do appreciate that they did try to develop the plot of the episodes leading up to the finale to set-up the finale, but the Seven-Chakotay came out of nowhere and still felt tacked on. I never picked up on any hints that she harbored this physical attraction to him in the years leading up to the final few episodes. It wouldn't be as big of deal if they didn't include that as part of the drama of the final episode.


I always thought her and the Doc were good...

Whill wrote:

Overall, I liked Voyager better than Deep Space Nine, but not leaps and bounds better. I will never own either of these series and never watch them again, other than maybe a very few select episodes (but maybe not). Both series had great premises but neither completely lived up to their potentials. Although I grew to appreciate them more than when I first saw the pilots way back then, viewing the entire series really only confirms my initial decisions to not follow them.


Over the decades i've done two re-watches of TNG.. And am now almost done with one re-watch of voyager myself. never really cared for DS9, and have not even TOUCHED any of the newer stuff.. BLEH.

For me i'd rank them
TNG
TOS
Voyager
DS9

Everything else.

DougRed4 wrote:
I too enjoyed the Kelvin movies, and found they were fun movies. From my perspective many Trek fans are purists or very particular about their likes and dislikes, and I know it's en vogue to hate on them, but for the most part I find them pretty entertaining. It's actually pretty amazing that we have so much Trek that fans can pick and choose what they do and don't like.


I love the kelvin moves. A lot more than a # of the originals..

Especially Trek 5 (the final frontier), Insurrection and nemesis.

Sutehp wrote:
A fourth Kelvin film is in the works? I thought they announced in 2019 that there would be no more Kelvinverse films. Can you shed any light on this, Whill? What have you heard?


Everything i've seen says its a no go, MOSTLY cause of pine.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Trek/Voyager Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I never knew her throat had ciggy damage, but it did remind me of some of the more 'graiting' voices i've heard, through out the years.. And i agree, she was much better than sisco. NO WHERE near as good as kirk or Picard though.

Agreed.

Quote:
Whill wrote:
Seven was one of my fave characters on the show...

I always thought her and the Doc were good...

So we're shipping now? I love the Doctor and he does have a deep friendship with Seven. But since Seven's character arc was to reclaim her humanity, I can see why she ended with an actual human and not The Doctor. The problem was just that it felt tacked on with Chakotay. But maybe you're right and the Doctor would have been better. He was shown to be married to a human in the original timeline changed in the final episode.

Quote:
Over the decades i've done two re-watches of TNG.. And am now almost done with one re-watch of voyager myself. never really cared for DS9, and have not even TOUCHED any of the newer stuff.. BLEH.

I watched the entire TNG years ago, but it was my my first time seeing a lot of the episodes. Of Legacy Trek, it has the highest number of favorite episodes and is definitely my fave overall series.

Quote:
I love the kelvin moves. A lot more than a # of the originals..

Especially Trek 5 (the final frontier), Insurrection and nemesis.

I just started Nemesis today at lunch. I'll finish it his week or next. I swear, the last time I'll watch it ever.

Quote:
Everything i've seen says its a no go, MOSTLY cause of pine.

The new movie may not be set in Kelvin timeline. I guess there is a possibility that they will for the time release a Star Trek movie not based on TV characters and instead be a completely new ship and crew. The deal for one of the several scripts that have been in development in recent years did fall through due to negotiations with both Chris Pines and Chris Hemsworth, the Thor actor who played Kirk's father in ST09 (I guess it was time travel or they were bringing him back to life). There is no official word on whether the new film would have that crew or not, but Paramount supposedly announced a Star Trek movie for 2023.
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