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Forced "dead in space"
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Forced "dead in space" Reply with quote

With what we see of technology in star wars we see that there are shilds covering hullopenings like hangars and the like, ships can pass through these and people can work in the hangar with air.

We have seen spectacular ship to ship fighting, we have to a degree seen boarding actions and more.

However have we seen any ship being "dead in space" as in all systems shut down, hull may be intact but no power and or maybe a basic life support running.

I have a vague meneory of ships dead in space through various star war books, but is there weapons alowing this?

One wepaon I could think of doinf something similar to this is the seperatist suoer weapon, the uber ion canon thing, I would imagine a ship ionized would suffer system mailfuncetions and even engine and weapon system shut downs.

are there any rules on this, or can I "just" expnad on ion wepaonry as is?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ion weapons can totally shut a ship down as is.. All you'd need to do, is either make them potentially do more damage, or have MORE of them being fired at ships.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Ion weapons can totally shut a ship down as is.. All you'd need to do, is either make them potentially do more damage, or have MORE of them being fired at ships.


Didn't "dead in space" happen in ESB, when a Star Destroyer was hit by the ion canon on the surface? And in Rogue One, allowing the Hammerhead to put an SD into another SD?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES< both ISD's got completely ionized, and were 'dead in space'..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Didn't "dead in space" happen in ESB, when a Star Destroyer was hit by the ion canon on the surface? And in Rogue One, allowing the Hammerhead to put an SD into another SD?

In WEG terms they were 'controls frozen' due to ionization damage. The term 'dead is space' is used by WEG to mean something else - It is a severe damage result on the normal damage chart.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Didn't "dead in space" happen in ESB, when a Star Destroyer was hit by the ion canon on the surface? And in Rogue One, allowing the Hammerhead to put an SD into another SD?

In WEG terms they were 'controls frozen' due to ionization damage. The term 'dead is space' is used by WEG to mean something else - It is a severe damage result on the normal damage chart.


Not sure I agree with you, there.

Dead in Space means

Quote:
Dead in space. All drives and maneuvering systems are destroyed. The vehicle is adrift in space.


Quote:
Controls ionized. A controls ionized result means that the vehicle's controls suffer a temporary power overload. The ship loses -ID from its maneuverability, fire control for weapons, damage from weapons, and shield dice for the rest of that round and the next round. (The vehicle's body strength stays at its full die code.)


Controls ionized means that the ship loses some maneuverability, fire control, etc., for a couple of rounds. That could be what we see in ESB, but they'd still be able to shoot... and 20 turbolasers with 3D fire control (instead of 4D) are going to do some damage to something.

Rogue One, though, I think must be dead in space. The Star Destroyer clearly could not move under its own power, or it would likely have pretty easily resisted the push of a Hammerhead, given the huge size difference between them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Controls ionized means that the ship loses some maneuverability, fire control, etc., for a couple of rounds. That could be what we see in ESB, but they'd still be able to shoot... and 20 turbolasers with 3D fire control (instead of 4D) are going to do some damage to something.

However, there is a result under Ionization Damage called "Controls Dead", which is never clearly defined. The closest we get is the description of Controls Frozen:
    If a ship is suffering from as many controls ionized results as the ship has maneuverability dice, the ship's controls are frozen for the next two rounds. The ship must maintain the same speed and direction for the next two rounds; it may not turn, fire weapons, make shield attempts or take any other actions, making the ship an easy target for enemy gunners.

    The pilot must still make the piloting rolls or the ship automatically crashes (if there's anything to run into) or goes spinning out of control.

    When controls are frozen, blue lightning plays across all of the controls of the vehicle, as seen when Luke Skywalker's snowspeeder was destroyed in The Empire Strikes Back.
Quote:
Rogue One, though, I think must be dead in space. The Star Destroyer clearly could not move under its own power, or it would likely have pretty easily resisted the push of a Hammerhead, given the huge size difference between them.

Agreed. Obviously, the RAW's rules for Ionization are in need of revision, for clarity's sake if nothing else.

My own version needs an update, but the basic premise is solid, I think. Something thusly:
    0-4 = 1D Ionization
    5-8 = 2D Ionization
    9-12 = 3D Ionization
    13-16 = 4D Ionization
    17-20 (5D Ionization) = Controls Frozen (As Above)
    21-24 (6D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Lightly Damaged)
    25-28 (7D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Heavily Damaged)
    29-32 (8D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Severely Damaged)
    33+ (9D Ionization) = Controls Dead (Destroyed)
So, if a ship gets to Controls Frozen, it suffers the result as described in the RAW. Then, if the ship gets pushed above 5D Ionization, it suffers permanent Damage and goes Dead in Space until the damage can be repaired. However, the ship can no longer take additional Ion Damage until the systems are repaired (due to various systems being off-line due to surge protection, circuit breakers, etc, that must be reset to bring the ship back on line).

For example, an Imperial Star Destroyer is hit with multiple blasts from a KDY v-150 Ion Cannon and takes a total of 6D Ionization Damage. It is now Lightly Damaged, and the Damage must be repaired as per the rules for Capital Ship Repair. However, any additional Ion Cannon attacks will have no effect.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Not sure I agree with you, there...

My bad, I thought we were specifically talking about occurrences of ionization damage. But yes, the ISD in TESB is ion damage in game terms because it only suffered ion damage. I'm not remembering what all damage the ISD in RO took right now, but if it took more, you watched it recently and I believe you.

My general point still stands that the game term "dead is space" is not the same thing as the ionization damage game terms "controls frozen" and "controls dead." To avoid confusion in our readers and participants, the two terms should not be interchanged when referring to RAW.

CRMcNeill wrote:
However, there is a result under Ionization Damage called "Controls Dead", which is never clearly defined. The closest we get is the description of Controls Frozen:
    If a ship is suffering from as many controls ionized results as the ship has maneuverability dice, the ship's controls are frozen for the next two rounds. The ship must maintain the same speed and direction for the next two rounds; it may not turn, fire weapons, make shield attempts or take any other actions, making the ship an easy target for enemy gunners.

    The pilot must still make the piloting rolls or the ship automatically crashes (if there's anything to run into) or goes spinning out of control.

    When controls are frozen, blue lightning plays across all of the controls of the vehicle, as seen when Luke Skywalker's snowspeeder was destroyed in The Empire Strikes Back.

It's not that "controls dead" is not clearly defined. It's not technically defined at all. It is just repeated from Blue Vader which also doesn't define it. However, since it is at the bottom of an ion cannon chart, the chart's preceding damage results are increasing levels of "controls ionized", and the "controls ionized" result is defined with the accumulation of them resulting in a defined "controls frozen" result, the most logically presumed intention of RAW is that controls dead = controls frozen. "Controls dead" was likely the original name of "controls frozen", and when they changed it to "controls frozen," editing just missed it on the ion cannon chart. Furthermore, the most logical reason for the change was to differentiate it from the normal severe damage result, "dead is space".
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, yeah, what I meant was that, if you went looking for a definition of Controls Dead, the closest thing you would find would be the definition of Controls Frozen, so you could make the leap of saying "they said Controls Dead, but they meant Controls Frozen."

It also seems odd that, even though you got a Controls Fred result, the pilot would still be required to make the appropriate Piloting skill checks, despite the fact that the controls the pilot would use to make said check are now... frozen.

I'd be more inclined to say that, if a ship hits Controls Dozen, it automatically fails any movement checks by the Difficulty level of its Speed and Terrain. Basically, if there's a Terrain roll to be made, just apply the Difficulty to the Movement Mishap chart and apply the result.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
...It also seems odd that, even though you got a Controls Fred result, the pilot would still be required to make the appropriate Piloting skill checks, despite the fact that the controls the pilot would use to make said check are now... frozen.

I'd be more inclined to say that, if a ship hits Controls Dozen, it automatically fails any movement checks by the Difficulty level of its Speed and Terrain. Basically, if there's a Terrain roll to be made, just apply the Difficulty to the Movement Mishap chart and apply the result.

I agree about RAW, so in my rules I had removed the piloting roll from while controls are frozen (unless the vehicle is flying in the presence of significant gravity and headed toward the ground before controls are unfrozen, where they may have the opportunity to effect a crash landing at GM discretion per my rules for that).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'd be more inclined to say that, if a ship hits Controls Dozen, it automatically fails any movement checks by the Difficulty level of its Speed and Terrain. Basically, if there's a Terrain roll to be made, just apply the Difficulty to the Movement Mishap chart and apply the result.


Agreed. If the controls are frozen, it shouldn't be able to make any maneuvers, ergo any rolls needed due to where it's at, should auto fail
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I agree about RAW, so in my rules I had removed the piloting roll from while controls are frozen (unless the vehicle is flying in the presence of significant gravity and headed toward the ground before controls are unfrozen, where they may have the opportunity to effect a crash landing at GM discretion per my rules for that).

In the interests of having a single rule for everything, you could just automatically count being in the presence of significant gravity as Very Easy terrain under the circumstances, then have an automatic fail as I described above. All the Collision results on the Starship Movement Failure chart default to Spin Wildly Out Of Control if there's nothing there for the ship to run into.

IIRC, you also have a system for using dice to generate random Difficulty values. One could conceivably roll those dice against the Movement Failure Chart to determine the result, with a set number of rounds until the ship gets close enough to the ground that a failure results in a collision.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, you also have a system for using dice to generate random Difficulty values. One could conceivably roll those dice against the Movement Failure Chart to determine the result, with a set number of rounds until the ship gets close enough to the ground that a failure results in a collision.

That's one way to do it. My house difficulty ranges are actually based on the RAW random difficulty chart. I did come up with a chart to replace the RAW random difficulty chart with a less random difficulty chart that on'y produced results inside the ranges, shared below.

Quote:
Less Random Difficulties (Optional)
(round up division results)
.....1D÷2 ..Very Easy
4+(1D÷2) .Easy
......8+1D .Moderate
....15+1D .Difficult
....22+1D .Very Difficult
....29+1D .Heroic

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