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Reducing MAP penalties for "specialists"
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reducing MAP penalties for "specialists" Reply with quote

I came to think about ROF and some other multiple actions.

I would assume a trained combat pilot can switch between comms, weapons and sensors in faster than what woule be several actions.

as to shooting, I would think a trained soldier who of course by being military is trained in things like auto fire and the like, and to a greate extent than most.

since everyone can specialize in a skill then to me it makes to reduce MAP by 1 or even 2 steps.


the (s)Blaster rifle: XD+X character can decide to actually shoot twise simulating burst or aout fire with map then applied on the 3rd action in stead of norally second.

I can see this for many specializtions acually
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me this is already sort of 'baked in', as the people really good at those skills get them high enough to offset the MAP.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
To me this is already sort of 'baked in', as the people really good at those skills get them high enough to offset the MAP.


Exactly. Their HIGHER skill value (and cheaper cost to raise it), already offsets those maps..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
To me this is already sort of 'baked in', as the people really good at those skills get them high enough to offset the MAP.

I agree with Doug. The ability to offset MAPs is baked in to the higher skill. The character rolling the higher skill and the MAPs being offset is double bonus. RAW handles MAPs fine in this respect, even for specializations which are a lesser cost to get to a higher skill level.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also agree with Doug, garhkal, and Whill - and you sort of say it right in your premise:
Quote:
I would assume a trained combat pilot can switch between comms, weapons and sensors in faster ...


Skill in D6 is represented by Die Code, ergo, higher Die Code is more skilled. This was the very intent with MAPS.
Additionally, and often over looked aspect of MAPS and D6 when I see threads talking about what should be MAPS and what shouldn't is Time. It is very often overlooked that a round of combat in D6 is 5 seconds. That is very fast. It is not just about doing the action, but how much time it takes to do. So when you incur MAPS it is a factor of dividing your attention and rushing - this is what MAPS are for.

I had at one time actually imposed a House rule restricting characters to a maximum number of multiple actions based on their Dexterity Die Code, unless they had some un-natural power or were under a force point, because of the short duration of combat rounds (it also helped keep them from over doing and seeing penalties render skills ineffective).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seconded, er... (counts fingers) Fifthed.

This sounds more like what I've proposed elsewhere re Familiarity Bonuses, where a character gets bonus dice with a piece of equipment that they operate on a regular basis, to the point where they've internalized its functions and operating it comes much easier. A bespoke rule for ignoring MAPs focuses too narrowly on that one aspect of what skills can do.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:


I had at one time actually imposed a House rule restricting characters to a maximum number of multiple actions based on their Dexterity Die Code, unless they had some un-natural power or were under a force point, because of the short duration of combat rounds (it also helped keep them from over doing and seeing penalties render skills ineffective).


As a DM i've done things like that before.. Limited folks to essentially 4-5 actions a round (FIVE Seconds) unless on a force point...
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp ONE shot in 5 seconds?
I mean hello technology, even the super slow fireing balsters we see on screen shoot faster than 1 shot pr 5 seconds,
walking 10 in 5 secomds is about as fast as most people sleep.

How do we deal with autofire and burst fire wne there are no real rules for this, how do we deal with differececc in traning , not just the dice numbers.

a Military tranied Parachutist and Combat Diver is NOT the same a Civilian Parachutist and hobby diver, even if they have 5D both in Diving.

I am sure ALL divers in the world as SELAS, once they learn how to parachute and take a shooting class?
I mean they ahve the same skills and D leves at times so they myst be the same?

or maybe there is a difference in some types of traning, maybe a military tranied otr a comnat tranied person is capable of dounf things with the weapon that civilians tra ied three times as long doe not....or?

All these factors makes me feel more and more that there is Skill and then there is Skill, with them not being the same.

I can see that a MILITARY pilot maybe has maybe a higher access to specialities than non kilitary, meaning my military pilot and your civilian pilot despite both having 7D piloting skill will not be able to do eachother's job, or even fly the same.

I have driven a car for 30 years, but does that make me EQUAL in skill with the at prfessional racer who drove in 30 years, even if we both invested time in training our driving.

I am probably much "better" than my civilian peers, but I am not a soldier and any trained soldier will see that easy

and this why I feel that the MAP threshold can be move up and down a step.


I can not mechanically see how specialized traning , not a skill speciality, can not warrant moving MAP on some action 1-2 steps.

I am quite sure a tranined combat soldier will have better effect, chances , skill and techniques for Auotfire or "fast" shooting than yu average sofa commado who wnt to the range, or is it so that 8D is 8D and the dice and dice alone decide, well then there is no differenc in a sith and jedi, or a trooper and a senator
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen this same argument one too many times in the old WEG forums, and in player groups I have been in... so this is the last time I will address it.

5 seconds isn't as long as you seem to think - and I have demonstrated this to players who have made similar arguments as your about actions and die codes by asking them to do something they feel shouldn't be a problem in five seconds while counting it off - they were always shocked at how fast it went.

Mamatried wrote:
sp ONE shot in 5 seconds?
I mean hello technology, even the super slow fireing balsters we see on screen shoot faster than 1 shot pr 5 seconds,

In most of the shots "on Screen" The fire rate is far lower than 1 per five seconds except for repeaters. Heros and those using repeaters on screen do fire faster.

Quote:
walking 10 in 5 secomds is about as fast as most people sleep.

The base movement in SW is in Meters and is assumed to be walking. The Average Human walking speed is 5kph, or 5000 meters per hour, or
1.388888888 meters per second... so WEG actually gave you a bonus to movement.

Quote:
How do we deal with autofire and burst fire wne there are no real rules for this, how do we deal with differececc in traning , not just the dice numbers.

While SW did not address Autofire very well, there are D6 official materials that do, and many house rules based on those to bring SW up to speed with repeaters.

Quote:
a Military tranied Parachutist and Combat Diver is NOT the same a Civilian Parachutist and hobby diver, even if they have 5D both in Diving.

Ok, first off the Civilian shouldn't have 5D... and I do not disagree that a military specialist should be better than a civilian, and in D6 this is reflected by DIE CODES in VARIOUS skills, and the military specialist will likely have skills the civilian wont. If a civilian reaches a Die Code of 5D or higher in skills shared by military personel, then he has gotten just as good as a a military person in those skills. This is how the D6 system works and it seems you do not really have a grasp on the functions of skills, game mechanics involving skills, or the core mechanics of time and movement.

Quote:
I am sure ALL divers in the world as SELAS, once they learn how to parachute and take a shooting class?
I mean they ahve the same skills and D leves at times so they myst be the same?

Maybe in your games - but that would be because they were assigned so. There are a lot of skills that a military person should have skill in a civilian shouldn't necessarily. Aside from this, this whole part of your argument is based on Logical Fallacy.

[/quote]I can see that a MILITARY pilot maybe has maybe a higher access to specialities than non kilitary, [/quote]
Potentially a valid point and optional house rule. I could see justifying a civilian pilot not be allowed to place specialization dice in combat craft or starfighter weapons...

Quote:
meaning my military pilot and your civilian pilot despite both having 7D piloting skill will not be able to do eachother's job, or even fly the same.

If they have the same die codes in ALL of the same skills, yes they could in D^ - again this is how D6 works... maybe stop measuring a single skill and ask yourself, what skills would a Military person in X job have. A Military Pilot might have not only Starfighter Pilot, but Starfighter Weapons, Starfighter Shields, Survival, Tactics, possibly Leadership if a squadron leader, etc... It seems you are not only trying to oversimplify by comparing 1 die code, but also by trying to incorporate aspects into a single skill that are not.

Quote:
I have driven a car for 30 years, but does that make me EQUAL in skill with the at prfessional racer who drove in 30 years, even if we both invested time in training our driving.

Die Code

Quote:
I am probably much "better" than my civilian peers, but I am not a soldier and any trained soldier will see that easy

Difference in varieties of skills and Die Code

Quote:
and this why I feel that the MAP threshold can be move up and down a step.

In your games you can do whatever you want. I would, however, strongly urge reading the rules a few more times more closely, get a good working understanding of the mechanics before tinkering with it based on inaccurate assumptions.


Quote:
I am quite sure a tranined combat soldier will have better effect, chances , skill and techniques for Auotfire or "fast" shooting than yu average sofa commado who wnt to the range, or is it so that 8D is 8D and the dice and dice alone decide, well then there is no differenc in a sith and jedi, or a trooper and a senator

I wouldn't give a "sofa Commando" even 3D. 8D is 8D and if you have an 8D die code you have not only done a LOT of training to get there, you have a lot of hands on practical experience - the kind it takes people a lifetime to acrue. This is all covered in the Universal Standards and Die Codes as defined and explained in almost EVERY version of D6 since SW D6 1st edition. Your last few statements are just Straw Man arguments to lead back to other threads you have posted about Sith and Jedi.

Please, consult your rulebook. Find a GM with lots of experience to sit in on a few games, get an understanding of the system.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLDR Version:

Your specialization DOES reduce the effective penalty of the MAP.

You have specialized in blaster, I have not.
Your total bonus is 6D, mine is 4d.

When we take two shots each, the map, which is 1D - you take them at 5D, I take them at 3D. The map affected your specialized character less.

There you go - the higher the skill of the person, the less effect the map has.
Done.

Longer version:



Most games, and especially this game - are not simulations.

It is an abstract collection of rules use to quantify cinematic activities into a structure which is repeatable, predictable and in theory, easy to use.

Just like in more melee focused games - every die roll does not represent every action (I can swing a sword x times in a y time). it is an approximation of an attempt at an attack.

I have played more ....simulation based mechanics (CEATS in role master - and gurps man to man) and while cool, they don't work as well for rpg combats of more than single vs. single.

If you want to try and say that each trigger pull is a die roll - knock yoruself out. The game rules mostly cover this (ignoring the missing rate of fire for most handheld weapons) - want to shoot two troopers, that is two actions - take your penalty and roll.

Also, I do understand that potential speed of actual single attack movements - as someone who has actual melee combat experience (trained in stage combat, and in fencing, and martial arts) and shooting (hunting, competition shooting etc.) - no game can or should bother.

We are playing with dice and little men, not choreographing a fight scene in john wick, chapter long time ago.

Now, D6 is missing some mechanics that other games have added over the decades - for more rapid attacks, usually representing some sort of real world equivalent (auto fire, double tap, etc.) - typically they have a variety of names attached to them - and various rules (usually a modifier to hit and damage of some kind - varies by system).

In other places in the this (house rules) forum, there are many options for auto fire etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Now, D6 is missing some mechanics that other games have added over the decades - for more rapid attacks, usually representing some sort of real world equivalent (auto fire, double tap, etc.) - typically they have a variety of names attached to them - and various rules (usually a modifier to hit and damage of some kind - varies by system).

I think my Concurrent Action Penalty covers this nicely. Want to take an extra action during your turn? Fine, but it'll cost you an extra -1D per action. Want to get better at doing more things more quickly? Increase your skill level so you have more room to soak MAPs and CAPs.
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