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Dr. Bidlo
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Joined: 24 Nov 2021
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Location: Arizona, USA
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 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: |
I was basing it on the movies. Nearly every ship that is hit goes poof with one shot, not just TIE fighters. X-wings have 4D hull and a modest amount of shields and they pop just the same when hit by a TIE Fighter. Very rarely do we see a ship hit and just suffer some damage compared to the number of one shot, one kills.
I am fine with the RAW, I just personally think the Shields in Star Wars were made too weak in the game for what they should be. I certainly don't think they should be like Star Trek shields though! |
Based on that, anyone shot with a blaster, via the films, damn near always seems to die instantly. Kylo, and Leia (in the arm) are some of the very few exceptions. |
Yes, that is true too. If you want to recreate that, the difficulty to hit would need to be increased dramatically. Just about every shot taken in the movies would have been Very Easy to Easy, modified occasionally by some modest cover. Based on the RAW, most of the shots taken in the movies should have hit. But, I did not intent to stray too far from the posted topic, so did not mention it. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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The ship combat seemed harder, represending the pilots dodging and having to also pilot and shoot.. Hence the MAPS the game has.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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I get it, the MAPS do reduce the skills dice, but how many times do we see the characters in the movies doing things that would impose MAPS in non-space/aerial action sequences? Most of the time, everyone is just standing shooting and still missing. Oh well, I do love the game and there is no way it can perfectly recreate the movies and that is fine.
I just thought of the grand daddy of all examples of ship vulnerabilities - the Executor loses shields and a tiny A-wing simply crashes into the viewport to the bridge and BOOM! |
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pakman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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This is where we can't intrepret the "cinematic" of the movies too much.
Our heroes can stand out in the open and not get hit - this is not a rare occurrence in movies - but makes for bad games - where while a system should support being heroic at times - needs at least some foundation in some kind of reality.
We have to distill what was done in any scene as part of trying to establish an element of the star wars universe (droids are useful, hyperspace is a thing, shooting in a bar in the outerrim is no big deal, etc.) vs. the set up for a scene - either for plot advancement, or to heighten dramatic tension (such as the falcon hyperdrive fails a lot...).
This is also sometimes an anomaly of a specific game system - some games have a passive defense (AC in DND or defense bonus in d20 star wars) - where you could justfiy them standing there as part of their dex or defense bonus.
It just feels more odd if we try to compare heroes to game rules in d6, as it has a more active defense, where you have to dodge, and it feels like it should be more visibly noticeable.
So, actual characters in actual games - they need to take cover and dodge.
A lot.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:11 am Post subject: |
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zWell, if they stand there, they just get the range mods to worry about..
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 440
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | zWell, if they stand there, they just get the range mods to worry about.. |
Yeah, those range mods always bothered me too... I run scaled games, so when you see to scale what that 100 meter range is... it is insane and would only every be encountered in an open battlefield. All these ship boarding actions and firefights in urban areas are pretty much all at short range, which has a ridiculously low difficulty. But I am not proposing changing anything. It is even worse fiorstarship combat because at moderate range for a starfighter scale laser cannon, you wouldn't even be able to see a targeted starfighter, yet the difficulty is only moderate... I think that may be a product of the jump from first edition whete everything was abstracted to 2nd edition when we get hard numbers and distances. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I get it, the MAPS do reduce the skills dice, but how many times do we see the characters in the movies doing things that would impose MAPS in non-space/aerial action sequences? |
A lot. In blaster fights the pew-pew is fast and furious. Characters seem to be firing up to five times a "round". It almost seems as if characters aren't trying to preserve MAPs and are instead just hoping for a lucky shot (the more shots fired means the more chances for a "wild die explosion" to occur). But since we know it is not really game mechanics and rather just linear plotting, it is really just the case that more blaster bolts in the air means more excitement and drama.
| pakman wrote: | This is where we can't intrepret the "cinematic" of the movies too much.
Our heroes can stand out in the open and not get hit - this is not a rare occurrence in movies - but makes for bad games - where while a system should support being heroic at times - needs at least some foundation in some kind of reality. |
Yes, but maybe we can interpret the movies if we just unlearn what we have learned. When characters are taking fewer actions to not be over-MAPped, I tend re-interpret each blaster attack roll as actually being three shots. The attack roll, dodge rolls, and damage rolls all game mechanically work the way it does in RAW for a single attack. If it is a miss, then all three bolts missed. If it is a hit, then at least one bolt hits. If it is a hit with very heavy damage, maybe two of the bolts landed. The specific description of the outcome is interpretive of the dice rolls.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Oh well, I do love the game and there is no way it can perfectly recreate the movies and that is fine. |
Indeed. The goal of the RPG is to co-create original stories that seem like they could take place in the same universe as the films. That's it. We don't need to recreate the films with game rules. It's not a two way street.
| Quote: | | I just thought of the grand daddy of all examples of ship vulnerabilities - the Executor loses shields and a tiny A-wing simply crashes into the viewport to the bridge and BOOM! |
I see that as a rare combination of events that just happens to result in the Executor crashing into DS-II. There is no need to ever create rules for all that because there is no need for that to ever occur in the game. Executor-class ships are and should be rare in the galaxy, and the same exact thing ever happening again would rob RotJ of some of its drama. I'm very happy with that being a unique one-off situation. It doesn't have to be a "vulnerability" of the Executor that can be recreated in the game.
| pakman wrote: | | We have to distill what was done in any scene as part of trying to establish an element of the star wars universe (droids are useful, hyperspace is a thing, shooting in a bar in the outerrim is no big deal, etc.) vs. the set up for a scene - either for plot advancement, or to heighten dramatic tension (such as the falcon hyperdrive fails a lot...). |
That's good advice.
| Quote: | | This is also sometimes an anomaly of a specific game system - some games have a passive defense (AC in DND or defense bonus in d20 star wars) - where you could justfiy them standing there as part of their dex or defense bonus. |
That's a good point. In the fall of '87 when I stopped planning my next AD&D campaign to read the WEG SW RPG core, it immediately jumped out at me a key difference to D&D. The AC stat includes Dex bonuses but it primarily is based on the armor worn by a character, meaning in D&D's concept of armor, it prevents attacks from being successful. Opposed to Star Wars armor which reduces severity of damage. With Dex penalties, some SW armor actually makes it easier to get hit in the first place (by reducing dodge dice). D&D armor helping to prevent attacks from being successful in the first place is very static. Of course damage is totally different in D&D because once an attack is successful, there definitely will be damage (at least one HP).
But even in D&D, if a character's AC gets a bonus from Dex then they aren't really just standing there. Gamers that interpret it that way are forgetting that a Dex bonus means moving to avoid attacks. Mini Six and D6 games that use static defense to decrease dice rolling (by eliminating dodge rolls) are the same. So rolling dice to dodge is just more of a reminder that you aren't just standing there and avoiding attacks.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | It is even worse fiorstarship combat because at moderate range for a starfighter scale laser cannon, you wouldn't even be able to see a targeted starfighter, yet the difficulty is only moderate... I think that may be a product of the jump from first edition whete everything was abstracted to 2nd edition when we get hard numbers and distances. |
It seems you are forgetting that spaceship weapons have targeting computers which operate with sensor technology, so gunners don't have to see enemy ships with the naked eye.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Perhaps I read too quickly, but I did not see the Shields result that simulates the result from ESB (rear deflector... one more hit). |
That's covered under #5 in my post.
| Quote: | | Another note: hyperdrives disabled seems like a minor result for severely damaged. I would think for severely damaged, the hyperdrive is destroyed. You have to limp somewhere on your back-up hyperdrive or sublights. When you get somewhere, that's a costly replacement. It is also a great mechanism to limit the player's ability to go anywhere ant time when you need to keep them in a certain locale or region... |
Well, that depends greatly on the circumstances in which the hyperdrive is disabled, doesn't it? Having your hyperdrive disabled when you're about to jump away from a pursuing ISD is certainly severe...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | SOrt of like the arc's emitter got taken out! |
| Whill wrote: | | I call them projectors, but yeah. I see each ship's shield system as having a shield projector for each arc. The total shield energy can be moved around between the arcs, but with a certain kind of damage, the total shields are -2D total and one projector is knocked out, making it impossible to shift any remaining shields to protect that arc until repaired. |
Exactly. The shield system has central generators, with an emitter / projector for each arc. Under this proposed edit, either the generator or the emitter for the affected arc can be put out of action, depending on the whim of the dice.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2259
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | zWell, if they stand there, they just get the range mods to worry about.. |
Yeah, those range mods always bothered me too... I run scaled games, so when you see to scale what that 100 meter range is... it is insane and would only every be encountered in an open battlefield. All these ship boarding actions and firefights in urban areas are pretty much all at short range, which has a ridiculously low difficulty. But I am not proposing changing anything. It is even worse fiorstarship combat because at moderate range for a starfighter scale laser cannon, you wouldn't even be able to see a targeted starfighter, yet the difficulty is only moderate... I think that may be a product of the jump from first edition whete everything was abstracted to 2nd edition when we get hard numbers and distances. |
I don't think it's quite that bad, Dr.
I often use this as a reference, and as you can see, even a starship at Medium/Moderate (or Long/Difficult) isn't so far away that they can't be seen.
Sure, this is just an abstraction. But it helps convey the rough distances involved.
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