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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:14 pm Post subject: Intermediate (I) Skills |
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In this post, Whill mentions making Alter an (A) Skill. While I can see the reasoning, in that Alter would be a skill that needs experience with Sense / Control to use, there are aspects of Advanced Skills that don’t seem a proper fit, meaning the double CP cost to improve and the stacking with prerequisites.
That got me thinking about a possible solution, which I’m conceptually calling an (I) Skill, for Intermediate (between Standard Skills and Advanced Skills). Short version, an (I) Skill would have Prerequisites, with minimum dice needed to learn/use the (I) Skill, but would improve at normal CP cost rates, and would not stack with the prerequisites.
I’m thinking Alter is a good candidate for this House Rule. Any thoughts on others?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 4:02 am Post subject: Re: Intermediate (I) Skills |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill mentions making Alter an (A) Skill. While I can see the reasoning, in that Alter would be a skill that needs experience with Sense / Control to use, there are aspects of Advanced Skills that don’t seem a proper fit, meaning the double CP cost to improve and the stacking with prerequisites. |
Based on multiple past discussions and the above, part of this dilemma with my advancing of some skills in the game is created by an unnecessary dogmatic adherence to the "prerequisite stack rule" of advanced skills, a single sentence in R&E.
My solution was tweaking that single sentence to indicate that the stacking of advanced skills with its prerequisites isn't absolute. It is only allowed when the GM deems that the particular use of the prerequisite would benefit from the advanced skill. It doesn't have to be black and white, all or nothing. This update allowed the expansion of an advanced skill's prerequisites, including even attribute prerequisites in addition to more skills.
If you house rule the implied 'always' in RAW to an explicit 'maybe based on GN discretion' then the prerequisite stacking concern of advanced skills completely dissolves...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That got me thinking about a possible solution, which I’m conceptually calling an (I) Skill, for Intermediate (between Standard Skills and Advanced Skills). Short version, an (I) Skill would have Prerequisites, with minimum dice needed to learn/use the (I) Skill, but would improve at normal CP cost rates |
Eliminating the stacking concern only leaves the concern about CP cost for skill improvement. Advanced skills start at 1D when learned after play begins. The most a starting PC can have in an advanced skill is 2D (if the character satisfies the prerequisites and allocates 2D in starting skill dice to the advanced skill). I'm not really seeing a problem with double the advancement cost. It won't be outrageous at first, but it will get exponentially harder as the PC advances.
One of the major complaints of the RAW Force system has always been that once Force PCs become powerful they overshadow the rest of the group. A double cost for Alter is one way to prevent that.
If you still feel that makes advanced skills too expensive, another balancing factor in my game system is that using advanced skills involves adding the skill die codes to attribute values. So that 1D or 2D starting out is adding to another die code in use, but advance skill improvement costs are based on the advanced skill's die code alone.
In the case of my Alter skill, it may take 4 skill points to raise Alter from 2D to 2D+1, but but those die codes are added to the character's base The Force attribute die code in use. This still addresses the concern of Force characters starting too weak in RAW, like The Force attribute does in general. Control and Sense default to and improve from The Force attribute die code, but my Alter adds to The Force attribute.
In effect, it still represents the basic axioms of the game that I maintain: normal skills default to attributes while advanced skills don't. I feel it is important to have characters who are Force-sensitive (and thus have Control and Sense), but have no access to telekinesis.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I’m thinking Alter is a good candidate for this House Rule. Any thoughts on others? |
So with the alternate solution of tweaking advanced skill rules instead of staying limited by them, I feel that eliminates any need for "intermediate" skills. But others may like the concept, so my suggestions for skills are the other normal skills I have made into advanced skills:
Acrobatics
Armor/Powersuit Proficiency
Astrogation
Bowcaster
Capital Ship Operation
Capital Ship Tech
Forgery
Lightsaber
Martial Arts
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Intermediate (I) Skills |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | In this post, Whill mentions making Alter an (A) Skill. While I can see the reasoning, in that Alter would be a skill that needs experience with Sense / Control to use, there are aspects of Advanced Skills that don’t seem a proper fit, meaning the double CP cost to improve and the stacking with prerequisites.
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I like the idea of a skill that has a prereq that is not an Advanced (and your reasoning makes sense), but I would not come up with a whole new grouping or type of skill just for this...
I would just put into whatever house rules you have on the Force and Character creation something like;
"A new force using character's first skill is typically Sense, although it can be Control. However, a Force user must have Sense and Control before they can learn Alter". Done.
I would not create a whoe new set of type of skills - unless you already have a bunch of them, and that solution fits another existing problem.
What ever works for your group.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Intermediate (I) Skills |
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| Whill wrote: | | Based on multiple past discussions and the above, part of this dilemma with my advancing of some skills in the game is created by an unnecessary dogmatic adherence to the "prerequisite stack rule" of advanced skills, a single sentence in R&E. |
It's a personal preference thing, obviously, but for me, if a category of things is defined by specific traits and rules of usage (as in the case of Advanced Skills), then said things should comply in all respects, and if they don't, they belong in a different category.
| Quote: | | One of the major complaints of the RAW Force system has always been that once Force PCs become powerful they overshadow the rest of the group. A double cost for Alter is one way to prevent that. |
A fair point, and something I've been trying to address with other modifications, but I'm not sure if that's a step I want to take yet.
| Quote: | others may like the concept, so my suggestions for skills are the other normal skills I have made into advanced skills:
Acrobatics
Armor/Powersuit Proficiency
Astrogation
Bowcaster
Capital Ship Operation
Capital Ship Tech
Forgery
Lightsaber
Martial Arts |
Could you elaborate as to what skills would be the prerequisites for these?
For my part, I made Acrobatics an Advanced Skill with Agility and Climbing/Jumping as Prerequisites. For some reason, I had thought that Swoop Operation already had some variation on this rule, but a check of the description in 2E and 2R&E showed nothing of the sort. As such, I'd say that Swoop Operation is also a good candidate, with Repulsorlift Operation (or Landspeeder Operation, if one wants to distinguish between Landspeeder and Airspeeder Operation) as the prerequisite. Also, I'd be inclined to make Airspeeder Operation a prerequisite for Starship Operation.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Intermediate (I) Skills |
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| pakman wrote: | I would not come up with a whole new grouping or type of skill just for this...
I would just put into whatever house rules you have on the Force and Character creation something like;
"A new force using character's first skill is typically Sense, although it can be Control. However, a Force user must have Sense and Control before they can learn Alter". Done. |
You just described an advanced skill. Normal skills default to attributes while advanced skills don't default. If you don't get Alter by default of having the Force attribute alone, then Alter is advanced. If you must have Sense and Control before having Alter, then Sense and Control are prerequisites of Alter.
That's what I did, so I agree. I did tweak advanced skill rules a bit, but that was enough to make it work well so no new type of skill is really necessary.
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