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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10862
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

Disney is not saying the entire Star Wars fanbase is toxic. (No one is saying that all toxic fans are racists or that all racists are toxic about it.) Toxic fandom is not a problem unique to Star Wars. There are just a lot of toxic people in the world in general, so in any large enough sample size (e.g. Star Wars fans), there is going to be a percentage of toxic people in that group. It is a small minority of fans who are the real problem in the fandom.

Quote:

Some fans instantly get defensive when the racism and hatred corners of the fandom are even brought up (they doth protest too much, methinks)... Truly moral, empathic people would be horrified to learn about the treatment other humans are getting, treatment that has nothing to do with the writing or even actor performances.

Below were Lucasfilm's specific comments after Ingram spoke out publicly in resistance to the hateful, racist harassment she had been receiving since the show started...

It's been pointed out to me that a corner of the Star Wars fandom takes offense at these tweets, claiming that these are bashing all fans. I've seen it being spread that Lucasfilm is saying all legitimate non-racist criticism of the OBK show itself is really racially motivated. Lucasfilm hasn't actually addressed any criticisms of the show that I have seen. I am a part of all fans. I am not in the slightest bit offended by these tweets, and the reason is simply that these statements are clearly not directed to all fans. The main tweet clearly indicates it is only directed towards anyone making the actor "feel in any way unwelcome," which is an extremely gentle euphemism for the vile hate speech she has been subjected to. The second one effectively advises to not choose to be racist. That is clearly directed only at those who choose racism. If you aren't a racist Star Wars fan, then these tweets do not apply to you. If you take offense to these statements, that says a lot more about you than Disney and Lucasfilm. If you feel you are not racist but get called a racist a lot in your life so this is a sensitive topic for you, then maybe you should take a good look in the mirror and examine why that keeps happening to you. And if media outlets are running with stories about how toxic all Star Wars supposedly are, they are just as prejudice as the haters. Not all fans are toxic, and Lucasfilm is not responsible for others warping the facts of their statements.

I noticed that Lucasfilm doesn't ever take the lead on these things. Lucasfilm is very reactive to problems in the fan base, and it makes business sense to not be too proactive. Fans are customers and Lucasfilm is selling a brand with many products. They would prefer that none of their customers are viewed as toxic, for fear of scaring off other customers who don't want to be associated with them. It seems to me that the problem of toxic fandom is officially ignored for the most part. Lucasfilm mostly only ever says something supportive after an actor rightfully speaks out against harassment from fans. Disney would likely rather everyone pretend there is no toxicity in the fandom, so they can keep selling their products to anyone who will buy them. Toxic fandom can be bad PR for any franchise and bad PR can affect sales, so they are not going to go around attacking their paying customers and making it worse. They are going to say the right thing only when they really have to. It seems to me that Disney often tries to protect their most precious customers, those blind faith customers with low standards that just love everything "Star Wars." It's like Disney doesn't want to upset their naive worldview that there is anything wrong with some Star Wars fans.

I've also been made aware that a corner of the fandom is pushing the absurd conspiracy theory that Lucasfilm is completely manufacturing the racist harassment drama to distract fans from the legitimate content criticisms about the OBK show itself. They say it is all a hoax, that a new black women SW actor on the show really hasn't gotten a single unwanted racist message because no Star Wars fans are racist. First of all, this is a pathetic attempt to dismiss the problem of racism, like the revisionist history lying that the American Civil War wasn't at its heart about slavery. Secondly, this hasn't in the slightest bit distracted from all the non-racist criticism of the show. I have observed that each week, fan criticisms of the show's content have only grown in number and severity, not minimized in anyway. Most of the criticism has nothing to do with Reva or her actor. Disney clearly has little impact on the narratives. The conspiracy theory that toxic racist harassment doesn't actually exist in Star Wars fandom is pure bantha poodoo, and you are a fool if you believe that.

The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred, and it will continue to do so. This is an official stance of the Rancor Pit, as indicated by the forum guidelines and the phpBB registration agreement. You are free to think and feel however you want. If you don't want to feel you are being called out, then keep any hatred and its apologetic propaganda to yourself. It's that simple. Thank you.
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FVBonura
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2026 7:51 pm Post subject:

I was waiting for my pizza to cook and I decided to read this thread. I myself am a freedom of speech absolutist. Feel free to criticize me or mock me, you’re entitled to your opinion and if I think your observations are valid, I’ll correct my work. I do not fear, criticism or mockery. I’m bigger than that. There is one thing that I am interested in, a precise definition of the word “hatred“ such that it can be observed in this forum. Be well. _________________ Star Wars Deckplans Alliance Star Wars Prequel Commentary X-Wing Alliance Translation

shootingwomprats
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2026 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

Whill wrote:

The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred, and it will continue to do so. This is an official stance of the Rancor Pit, as indicated by the forum guidelines and the phpBB registration agreement. You are free to think and feel however you want. If you don't want to feel you are being called out, then keep any hatred and its apologetic propaganda to yourself. It's that simple. Thank you.

Have I missed something important? In the time I have been a part of RP up to this very post, I am not aware of hatred posts on the Forum. Again, have I missed something critical?
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garhkal
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 12:38 am Post subject:

FVBonura wrote:

I was waiting for my pizza to cook and I decided to read this thread. I myself am a freedom of speech absolutist. Feel free to criticize me or mock me, you’re entitled to your opinion and if I think your observations are valid, I’ll correct my work. I do not fear, criticism or mockery. I’m bigger than that.

There is one thing that I am interested in, a precise definition of the word “hatred“ such that it can be observed in this forum.

Be well.

That is something i always wonder, regarding hate speech/hate crimes..
WHO Defines what it is? How?

Case and point;
Several years back, i had a person IRL, who said i was committing a hate crime, because i simply said i DISLIKE the NBA/WNBA/NFL etc.. because to HIM, since most of the participants in those sports, are majority black, i must 'therefore be racist'.

Even though i tried to clarify "I care not for those sports. UFC, EPL soccer, that's what i like (and a large chunk of those who play in the EPL, and UFC are also black), he still felt what i said was a hate crime..

I've heard similar, from folks who's kids are in college, where someone says they dislike this person, or that political policy. AND immediately get called for hate speech...
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Whill
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 2:47 am Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

shootingwomprats wrote:

Whill wrote:

Have I missed something important? In the time I have been a part of RP up to this very post, I am not aware of hatred posts on the Forum. Again, have I missed something critical?

Since you are asking this question, yes, it seems that you have missed something critical. You seem to have missed the text that you quoted, the posts linked therein, the greater post that the quoted text comes from, this entire thread, and possibly more. I just re-read the thread to see if edits for clarification were needed, but I found it to be quite self-explanatory. I'm grasping to come up with further explanation.

A female Vietnamese-American DT actor experienced an onslaught of racist and sexist harassment everywhere online. It got so bad that it even infested Wookieepedia and her character's entry was vandalized with hate speech. Later, a female black American Obi-Wan Kenobi actor experienced a similar onslaught of racist and sexist harassment. This disgusting hatred should have no place in Star Wars fandom. And even if they were horrible actors (which is subjective), they are still human beings who did nothing to deserve the hateful treatment they got from some fans.

Wookieepedia put out a call to all Star Wars community managers to denounce this negativity in the fandom, and the Rancor Pit answered this call. I posted in the OP that I was confident the Rancor Pit did not have any of the pathetic haters who participate in these hateful online practices, and there have been no policy changes at the Rancor Pit that resulted from posting this thread. Not acting this hateful way was always an expectation of the Forum Guidelines from day one, and it was always a part of PHP BB terms of use from the day this forum was created in 2003. This thread used to be an announcement, but I more recently added the Wookieepedia tagline into the forum guidelines with a link to this thread for additional context and I changed this thread back to a normal thread. But the expectation has never changed. Hateful behavior was never was acceptable here, it still isn't, and it never will be as long as I have anything to say about it.

This thread serves as a proactive warning for new (and longtime) users. There doesn't have to had been any big hate speech incident here to warrant this – Disgusting hatred exists in Star Wars fandom (and any large fandom). I personally have witnessed many expressions of hatred in SW fandom (and sadly, some even in our niche WEG RPG fandom), but not at this website. Many users (both active posters and lurkers) have expressed appreciation for my stewardship of this community in general and even for this thread specifically. They want to feel safe that they will not have to read hatred being expressed here. If anyone reading this thread finds it bothersome that there are threads stating "The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred" here, they may want to look in the mirror and ask why that bothers them. Hatred is the Dark Side.

I hope this helps. Thank you.

FVBonura wrote:

There is one thing that I am interested in, a precise definition of the word “hatred“

Hmm. Are the images in the OP not visible to you? Wookieepedia wrote, "Hatred in this context means racism, sexism, harassment, and general toxicity." So that is the focus for this thread, but the forum guidelines and PHP BB terms include additional language.

FVBonura wrote:

I myself am a freedom of speech absolutist... There is one thing that I am interested in, a precise definition of the word “hatred“.

I find that I am a bit disturbed to read that you are interested in a "precise" definition of hatred right after expressing a sentiment against speech restriction. Hatred should be broadly avoided here. Some people could read what you wrote and think you want precision to know exactly what kinds of hatred you can get away with expressing and to what degree. Let's not go down that path, please. Do not test the tolerance to bad behavior on this site. Self-moderate.

FVBonura wrote:

“hatred“ such that it can be observed in this forum.

This is even more disturbing. You and everyone else should never want to observe this behavior on this forum (or anywhere). Wanting to observe it would be a really weird fetish that would seem to betray your wholesome purpose for coming here. Hate speech should be completely off topic for in-depth discussions of game rules, don't you think? Now I certainly do welcome you to keep your eyes open, and if you do happen to observe any racism, sexism, harassment, general toxicity, etc., then please notify me so I can address it asap.

Thank you.

garhkal wrote:

Oh, my. It can be defined in plain English. Here are some examples.

Statement 1: I dislike the character of Reva because of her nonsensical motivation to kill Luke to get revenge on his father who is an evil b@st@rd and doesn't know his son even exists anyway. [Not Racist]
Statement 2: I don't like Reva because she's a black woman. [Racist]

Statement 3: I don't like basketball and football. I like soccer. [Not Racist]
Statement 4: I don't like basketball and football because they have many black players. [Racist]

It's not a question of who defines it. The words used are what determines if it is hate speech or not. This should not be a big debate on this website. But if you ever see something here and you aren't sure if it is hate speech or not, then please point it out to me and I'll make a judgment.

Thank you.
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FVBonura
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 11:45 am Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

That is something i always wonder, regarding hate speech/hate crimes..
WHO Defines what it is? How?

Two very good questions. In this Forum, Whill makes the definitions, Whill interprets them, litigates, adjudicates, and Whill enforces them. Whill is Judge, jury, and executioner. Yes this sounds grim but Whill has a hard job and I'll speak more on this later.

garhkal wrote:

Case and point;
Several years back, i had a person IRL, who said i was committing a hate crime, because i simply said i DISLIKE the NBA/WNBA/NFL etc.. because to HIM, since most of the participants in those sports, are majority black, i must 'therefore be racist'.

I had a similar encounter on Facebook where I was sharing birth rate statistics of Muslim and non-Muslim families and I was called a racist. This puzzled me as Islam is a world religion practiced by almost every ethnicity and nation on Earth. This is why better agreed upon definitions are needed to prevent false positives.

Whill wrote:

Hmm. Are the images in the OP not visible to you?

Sorry "OP"?

Whill wrote:

Wookieepedia wrote, "Hatred in this context means racism, sexism, harassment, and general toxicity." So that is the focus for this thread, but the forum guidelines and PHP BB terms include additional language.

I know this may come across as obtuse but all those terms are very broad strokes that have very different meanings to different people.

For example:
I believe in only one human race. Any woman and any man who are healthy and are of child-bearing age can come together to produce a baby. If this baby is healthy will likewise be a component of producing new generations of human babies when of proper age. All humanity is one species. "Racism" is a darwinian construct to allow one ethnicity to falsely lord themselves over another ethnicity. I think the word "bigotry" is a better fit for that type of misconduct on this forum.

Whill wrote:

I find that I am a bit disturbed to read that you are interested in a "precise" definition of hatred right after expressing a sentiment against speech restriction.

Without a precise definition or more importantly an agreed definition. Exercise of discipline can become arbitrary, and filled with favoritism. An unfair bias to individuals with diverse opinions might be treated more harshly that those who largely agree with you. Is it safe here to be unpopular?

Whill wrote:

Hatred should be broadly avoided here. Some people could read what you wrote and think you want precision to know exactly what kinds of hatred you can get away with expressing and to what degree. Let's not go down that path, please. Do not test the tolerance to bad behavior on this site. Self-moderate.

Lets be open and frank here. We are all adults. What did you think I meant?

Whill wrote:

Or maybe if you could stop "clutching your pearls" for a minute, you would interpret my words as, I wish to observe the rules, your rules.

It has been my observation that forum governance and Wookieepedia governance lies on an administration with absolute power. I need not warn this esteemed body of the potential dangers of such a government model. There are individuals of diverse political, and philosophical beliefs here with different definitions, worldviews, and presuppositions of reality. You speak of tolerance, I don't get the sense tolerance is given enough weight here or on the Wiki. I don't hold you responsible Whill for the Wiki, I mention it for completeness.

There is no arbitration, or appellate court here to petition for grievances with your disciplinary actions. I know you know this and you have a herculean job to balance not enough discipline and we fall into chaos and too much discipline and we become a ghost town.

My posting here is for the purpose of reflection and thought. We are still here as many other forums are gone. I must conclude Whill you are doing something right. I seek clarity and I am ultimately curious about your thought process as we are literally at your mercy.

Food for thought gentlemen....
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shootingwomprats
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

Whill wrote:

Yes it does. As I know you're a smart guy and reading my post it's obvious I was referencing hate posts specifically in the RP forums. I am not sure why you felt you need to attempt to embarrass me but whatever. Someone from one of the largest fandom in creation did something bad, yeah we should do better, hurray team, but that is not what I asked.
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FVBonura
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

shootingwomprats wrote:

Go easy on Whill. This is clearly a very hot topic in his lexicon. I know I have come in to the forum, in other threads, with not enough sleep, and made posts where I fell flat on my face. Give him time to process. Wink

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shootingwomprats
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

FVBonura wrote:

shootingwomprats wrote:

Thank you for the insight and friendly advice. You're right, I could have been more understanding and mindful of where he was at when he saw the post. Thank you for being one of the cooler heads and attempting to defuse a situation before it may escalate. Escalation, name calling and shaming does not promote what is best about our community.
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FVBonura
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

shootingwomprats wrote:

This game is bigger than all of us. This is why I tolerate (put up with) diverse beliefs, the prequels, and the sequels. Wink

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garhkal
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 3:24 pm Post subject:

FVBonura wrote:

And that's partially why i asked.

Late 2009, where one gal i worked with in Gulfport (A HM1), who got ASKED to speak to a school on medical issues (STI's) merely pointed OUT statistical info regarding who gets what and what higher rates, and because one person got 'offended' by her bringing in FACTS< it was labeled hate speech.

I've seen similar elsewhere, where one person being 'merely offended' by someone saying something WITH FACTS to back it up, got labeled hate speech. BUT others literally calling for that person to be Beaten up, was NOT "Seen as hate speech".. All because of WHOM was saying it.

FVBonura wrote:

Sorry "OP"?

In forum parlance, OP stands for "original post". Or can also refer to original poster.

FVBonura wrote:

shootingwomprats wrote:

Unfortunately its a hot topic all over..

I even got a ban hammer on another site (related to sci-fi/super hero tv shows), merely for questioning the definition one poster HAD related to what 'is or isn't hate speech'..
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FVBonura
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2026 4:14 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

That is terrible. I myself grade on motivation. If you didn't mean to offend, my personal offense is not currency. Again this is why better definitions of "hate" are necessary to prevent weaponization of "offense".

garhkal wrote:

In forum parlance, OP stands for "original post". Or can also refer to original poster.

Thank you, I did not know that.

Whill to answer your OP question, yes I did sir.

garhkal wrote:

Unfortunately its a hot topic all over..

Indeed, but it does not give license for abuse of enforcement and bias in enforcement in this forum.

garhkal wrote:

I even got a ban hammer on another site (related to sci-fi/super hero tv shows), merely for questioning the definition one poster HAD related to what 'is or isn't hate speech'..

I was kicked out and banned from the Wookieepedia Discord for 30 days for asking questions about the various flags superimposed over the Death Star logo of the wiki. Inquiry is necessary for understanding and those who censor inquiry are perpetrators of bigotry. Only a closed mind fears scrutiny and the lost potential opportunity to change minds or at least educate the inquirer to their perspective.

Censorship is the greater evil.
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Whill
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2026 1:46 am Post subject: Re: The Rancor Pit actively condemns hatred

The declaration of this thread is a comforting message for Rancor Pit users and all Star Wars communities, regardless of where things did or didn't happen.

shootingwomprats wrote:

Whill wrote:

Since you are asking this question, yes, it seems that you have missed something critical... I hope this helps. Thank you.

Yes it does. As I know you're a smart guy and reading my post it's obvious I was referencing hate posts specifically in the RP forums... Someone from one of the largest fandom in creation did something bad, yeah we should do better, hurray team, but that is not what I asked.

No, not some one. Many fans did (and still do) many bad things. You asked if you missed something critical. It seems you still are, and/or you are being overly dismissive of the problem this declaration addresses.

I considered it probable that you were replying to a thread title without reading the whole OP. Your reply came across to me as annoyed by this thread, so I also considered it possible you posted it as a criticism of the message being posted here, which could mean a criticism of condemning hatred in general. But I must now admit that it seems likely that my perception of your annoyance with this may have been colored by an experience with you that I had forgotten about until typing this reply...

shootingwomprats wrote:

I am not aware of hatred posts on the Forum...

Escalation, name calling and shaming does not promote what is best about our community.

I'm glad you now agree with this, now. Below is a post of mine capturing something you edited out of your post after seeing this reply to it (as I recall, without any apology or even acknowledgment from you, by the way). Your post was two month after I posted this thread, and my response shows the spirit of this thread and the forum guidelines in action.

Someone mocked LGBTQ+ on the Rancor Pit

This mockery wasn't acceptable back then, and it still isn't now. I don't recall you doing this since then, so thank you.

shootingwomprats wrote:

Thank you for being one of the cooler heads and attempting to defuse a situation before it may escalate.

Yes, let me join in on this. Thank you Frank, for every instance of you having a cool head, both publicly on this forum (and Facebook), and in communication with me privately. I assure you, they are all much appreciated.
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