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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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So it makes loosing initiave a better option. How is that right? I think they should have done it where the looser declares first, inc number of actions up the chain to the winner who gets then to know what everyone else does. THEN they go first.
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure why you say that, because the winner chooses whether to go first or last. Earlier in this thread, I posted that going last should probably be the default choice for winning, except in situations where going first is needed, such as beating the enemy to something or cutting off their escape route. Simply put going last gives a better defense, but going first allows you to 'control' your enemy, through denial of area.
Your idea is an interesting one, but I think a better way to incorporate what it is I think your going for is to do something along the lines of what I am doing. Here are a couple of elements you might consider, individual initiatives and giving the character whose turn it is, the option to declare or wait. If they wait they can declare at any point later in the turn, but must declare before the second action round is taken. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10528
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 2. Roll Actions
The first side acts now. The character with the highest Perception goes first. the player tells you how many actions he's making this round and you assign the multiple actions penalty. then, the player rolls his character's first action.
Acting in Perception order (highest to lowest), every player tells you how many actions his character is making and rolls his first action.
(If the gamemaster characters go first, you just have to know how many actions each character is taking, assign the multiple actions penalties, and have the characters take their first actions.) |
| Orion wrote: | | The rules also say that reaction skills may be taken at any time and that they may use a remaining declared action or be an extra action. What they do not say, is how to handle MAP's when the character using the reaction skill has not declared actions yet, because his turn has not come up in the initiative order. This oversight, if you will, by WEG is what prompted Orphues to start this thread. |
I never questioned the rule on p.79, the next page from the above "Roll Actions" quote:
| Quote: | | The character can use any remaining actions for a reaction or have the action be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round. |
So in effect, adding an undeclared dodge doesn't effect actions before you got shot at in that round, but they do effect that action and all remaining actions. If your character hasn't declared any actions yet and a bad guy shoots at him, your character can choose to dodge and it would be with no MAP.
Let's say the shot missed, and when it came time to declare your # of actions and roll your first action, you would automatically have a 1D MAP from your dodge earlier that round. So you could declare nothing else that round. Or you could declare 1 action and that would have a MAP of 1D because of the dodge earlier in the same round. Or you could declare 2 actions that would both be at -2D, and so on.
Yeah, the rules don't come out and say all that and they may not have that example, but if you want to be literal, the underlined rule above states "for the rest of the round", and I don't see how it would be different whether you have already declared any actions or not.
And like others have stated, I am only talking about interpreting the official rules, not making any value judgement of these rules or suggesting house variants. I can understand GMs not liking the rules as is and using house adjustments, and if so then it's your game so do it!
I myself have been questioning how to handle initiative, and that may play into concerns of declared actions, etc. Sometimes declaring last can be an advantage, but sometimes your action happening first would be best. And with R&E system being that you roll you actions as you declare them and they take place as you roll them, changing intiative could possible change this fundamental mechanic. So I'm just not sure yet how I want to do it yet. The system was designed to be fast and furious, so I'm not sure how much I want to bog that down.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I myself have been questioning how to handle initiative, and that may play into concerns of declared actions, etc. Sometimes declaring last can be an advantage, but sometimes your action happening first would be best. And with R&E system being that you roll you actions as you declare them and they take place as you roll them, changing intiative could possible change this fundamental mechanic. So I'm just not sure yet how I want to do it yet. The system was designed to be fast and furious, so I'm not sure how much I want to bog that down. |
Not to get too much into the house rules, but I never really like how initiative worked. So here's what my group did, and it worked quite well:
All characters (PCs & NPCs) roll perception for initiative... characters DECLARE actions in order from lowest to highest. (The character who is more perceptive sees what other people are doing and is better able to watch the scene unfold.)
Then, all characters roll their first action dice and the actions HAPPEN in order from highest to lowest. (The character with better blaster skill can get the shot off quicker.)
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
I never questioned the rule on p.79, the next page from the above "Roll Actions" quote:
| Quote: | | The character can use any remaining actions for a reaction or have the action be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round. |
So in effect, adding an undeclared dodge doesn't effect actions before you got shot at in that round, but they do effect that action and all remaining actions. If your character hasn't declared any actions yet and a bad guy shoots at him, your character can choose to dodge and it would be with no MAP.
Let's say the shot missed, and when it came time to declare your # of actions and roll your first action, you would automatically have a 1D MAP from your dodge earlier that round. So you could declare nothing else that round. Or you could declare 1 action and that would have a MAP of 1D because of the dodge earlier in the same round. Or you could declare 2 actions that would both be at -2D, and so on.
Yeah, the rules don't come out and say all that and they may not have that example, but if you want to be literal, the underlined rule above states "for the rest of the round", and I don't see how it would be different whether you have already declared any actions or not.
And like others have stated, I am only talking about interpreting the official rules, not making any value judgement of these rules or suggesting house variants. I can understand GMs not liking the rules as is and using house adjustments, and if so then it's your game so do it!
I myself have been questioning how to handle initiative, and that may play into concerns of declared actions, etc. Sometimes declaring last can be an advantage, but sometimes your action happening first would be best. And with R&E system being that you roll you actions as you declare them and they take place as you roll them, changing intiative could possible change this fundamental mechanic. So I'm just not sure yet how I want to do it yet. The system was designed to be fast and furious, so I'm not sure how much I want to bog that down. |
I don't know if you realize, but your conclusion is exactly the same as mine, so I don't understand if I somehow failed to get the point across to you or if you are, perhaps, presenting a supporting argument for it. I agree with your argument, and in truth actually considered using it. The reason I didn't was that the example following it deals only with the clear cut case of declaration before the dodge and I felt it would difficult to support without something else from the rules, or more simple put I felt the example had a bit more meat to it, though I will say that your argument is well put.
As for your questions about initiative, again I'm a bit unsure of what your wondering about, because the R&E rules allow the winning side to choose whether to go first or last in the round, so the ability to make the decision based on which would be more advantageous is there already. Your concern for the effects of changing the initiative system are well founded as it is very easy to change that mechanic, unintentionally. I present my original mis-reading/understanding of those rules as an example. If you are looking for suggestions, I point you to the two I made to garhkal as I don't believe they will change the fundamental mechanic much, just sort of rearrange it. I can't say for sure because I have never ran the un-housed rules, due the aforementioned lapse in reading comprehension, but individual initiatives only change things to a strict highest to lowest order, no matter the side, and allowing a wait option restores the ability to choose the more advantageous tactic, while increasing the flexibility of it's use.
| rerun941 wrote: | Not to get too much into the house rules, but I never really like how initiative worked. So here's what my group did, and it worked quite well:
All characters (PCs & NPCs) roll perception for initiative... characters DECLARE actions in order from lowest to highest. (The character who is more perceptive sees what other people are doing and is better able to watch the scene unfold.)
Then, all characters roll their first action dice and the actions HAPPEN in order from highest to lowest. (The character with better blaster skill can get the shot off quicker.) |
I would classify this as more of a house rule based off 2 ed. than R&E as it seems to have more in common with that version of the rules, because it completely eliminates the changes made to declaration by R&E and returns to the all declarations before actions style of 2 ed. Nothing wrong with doing that if you wish, but you completely loose the flexibility that R&E was trying to create. This rule does make sense, again 'from a certain point of view'  ,so I can see what it is that appeals to you about it. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10528
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
I never questioned the rule on p.79, the next page from the above "Roll Actions" quote:
| Quote: | | The character can use any remaining actions for a reaction or have the action be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round. |
So in effect, adding an undeclared dodge doesn't effect actions before you got shot at in that round, but they do effect that action and all remaining actions. If your character hasn't declared any actions yet and a bad guy shoots at him, your character can choose to dodge and it would be with no MAP.
Let's say the shot missed, and when it came time to declare your # of actions and roll your first action, you would automatically have a 1D MAP from your dodge earlier that round. So you could declare nothing else that round. Or you could declare 1 action and that would have a MAP of 1D because of the dodge earlier in the same round. Or you could declare 2 actions that would both be at -2D, and so on.
Yeah, the rules don't come out and say all that and they may not have that example, but if you want to be literal, the underlined rule above states "for the rest of the round", and I don't see how it would be different whether you have already declared any actions or not... |
I don't know if you realize, but your conclusion is exactly the same as mine, so I don't understand if I somehow failed to get the point across to you or if you are, perhaps, presenting a supporting argument for it. I agree with your argument, and in truth actually considered using it... I will say that your argument is well put. |
Yes Orion, I realize. I arrived as the same conclusion as you back in 1997. So you by no means failed to get your point across to me or failed in anything, because I already understood your point over 11 years before I read this thread. Since our point was stated by you first in this thread, I most certainly was presenting a supporting argument for the point.
And thanks for your insights about the official rules for initiative, and reposting ReRun's alternate method. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my side comment about it. You are of course correct about the roller of the highest intitiative roll for each side gets to choose whether to his side acts first or last. But my conundrum is the consideration of an individual character level more than on a "side" level. But thank you for everthing.
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Yes Orion, I realize. I arrived as the same conclusion as you back in 1997. So you by no means failed to get your point across to me or failed in anything, because I already understood your point over 11 years before I read this thread. Since our point was stated by you first in this thread, I most certainly was presenting a supporting argument for the point.
And thanks for your insights about the official rules for initiative, and reposting ReRun's alternate method. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my side comment about it. You are of course correct about the roller of the highest intitiative roll for each side gets to choose whether to his side acts first or last. But my conundrum is the consideration of an individual character level more than on a "side" level. But thank you for everthing. |
Sometimes, I really dislike communication via text, it's just too easy to misunderstand what someone is saying. I am grateful to you for sharing your understanding of these rules, with your 11 years of experience behind it. It actually, helps me to put aside the few remaining doubts I have, due to not having played them in this way, so thank you.
My reposting of Rerun's method, was actually intended as an address to him, though looking back I can see where it might seem like part of the address to you. My suggestion, if you missed it, was in the last sentence prior to my quote of rerun, and referenced what I had suggested to garhkal at the top of this page, which is about character level initiative, if I'm am understanding what you are meaning. And for anything I have said that you may have found helpful, you are welcome. |
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