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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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On a side note, how would duelists wielding dual sabers or double-bladed sabers affect the result chart? The only thing I can think of is that they might have some advantages in a bind result. Maybe once the bind breaks, the person with the extra saber blade gets +1D on their next action?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | On a side note, how would duelists wielding dual sabers or double-bladed sabers affect the result chart? The only thing I can think of is that they might have some advantages in a bind result. Maybe once the bind breaks, the person with the extra saber blade gets +1D on their next action? |
Perhaps they use a different, but similar table. Boot Hill used to have a melee/brawling table with another column for off hand weapons. They causally didn't get as good a hits, but they tended to get more hits because of the second weapon. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | On a side note, how would duelists wielding dual sabers or double-bladed sabers affect the result chart? The only thing I can think of is that they might have some advantages in a bind result. Maybe once the bind breaks, the person with the extra saber blade gets +1D on their next action? |
Perhaps they use a different, but similar table. Boot Hill used to have a melee/brawling table with another column for off hand weapons. They causally didn't get as good a hits, but they tended to get more hits because of the second weapon. |
Personally, that's not a route I would want to go. For simplicity's sake, I would think the best choice is a single uniform results table, with any modifiers for unique weaponry factored into bonuses or penalties for results on that one table.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16232
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a thought I've been playing around with for this:
In the films, we see special moves in the form of disarms, knockdowns, brawling strikes, and the occasional grapple, so here is a variation on Bren's rules that includes that.
Step 1 = Both sides declare what result they are aiming for. The choices are Normal, Brawling, Disarm, Knockdown or Grapple. If they do not choose, then default to Normal.
Step 2 = Roll for the result on the following table. The first three results are the same as on Bren's result table, but the last four are changed to reflect the result that the duelist declared at the beginning of the round:
0-2 = Bind
3-6 = Forced Back
7-10 = Off Balance
Normal Result
11-14 = Glancing Blow (Normal damage w/ max result of Wounded)
15-18 = Solid Blow (Normal damage w/ max result of Incapacitated)
19-22 = Serious Blow (Normal damage w/ max result of Mortally Wounded)
23+ = Deadly Blow (Normal damage w/ max result of Killed)
Brawling Result
11-14 = Glancing Blow (Inflicts 1 Stunned Result)
15-18 = Solid Blow (Inflicts 2 Stunned Results)
19-22 = Serious Blow (Inflicts 3 Stunned Results)
23+ = Powerful Blow (Opponent is knocked out for 2D minutes)
Note: For the purposes of lightsaber combat, multiple Stunned results stack (i.e. 2 Stunned results equal a -2D penalty), and wear off at a rate of 1D per round.
Disarm Result
11-14 = Simple Disarm (Weapon lost, but can be retrieved with a standard action, with the attendant -1D MAP)
15-18 = Serious Disarm (Weapon lost and flies 1D meters in a random direction. Character incurs a MAP for picking up the weapon, in addition to any MAPs for moving to get to the weapon)
19-22 = Weapon Strike (Weapon struck by opponent and takes normal damage. Loser can choose to downgrade to Serious Disarm on a Lightsaber reaction skill check @ +5 standard difficulty, but weapon lands 2D meters away instead of 1D)
23+ = Weapon Steal (Weapon lost and taken by opponent)
Knockdown Result
11-14 = Shove (Victim is forced back off balance and suffers -2D penalty until the end of the next round)
15-18 = Throw (Victim is knocked prone and must either wait one round to stand or suffer multiple action penalties)
19-22 = Stunning Throw (Victim is knocked prone and takes a Stunned result)
23+ = Power Throw (Victim is knocked prone and takes a Wounded result)
Note: While knocked Prone, a character lands 1D meters away in a random direction. Standing up is a standard action, and until they stand, the character is limited to Cautious Movement, suffers a -2D penalty to brawling and melee weapons, and -4D to dodge (but gains a +1D bonus to blasters / firearms).
Grappling Result
11-14 = Weapon Grapple (Opponent's weapon is immobilized, and cannot be used to attack or parry until the grapple is broken. The grappled character cannot move, but may make attacks with his free hand)
15-18 = Normal Grapple (Opponent is grappled as normal)
19-22 = Power Grapple (Opponent is grappled as normal, but grappler has +1D advantage for the remainder of the grapple)
23+ = Superior Grapple (As above, but grappler has +2D advantage)
EDIT: On a successful result, the duelist may choose to inflict a lesser result, but must select from the desired result he declared at the beginning of the round.
So, I've been playing with this one in my head for a few days, but it all came together this afternoon. It may be a bit more complicated than some of you are interested in playing, and I may not have gotten the combat results just right, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways.
The way I'm thinking, based on their descriptions, the various Seven Lightsaber Forms may favor one Result choice over the others, or be more vulnerable. For instance, Form V might favor Knockdowns and Brawling Strikes, while Form II would be particularly resistant to Disarm results.
I was also thinking of doing a Setup Result chart, which would allow the character to maneuver his opponent into position so that he would be vulnerable to other potential results. But that may be too much detail...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | On a side note, how would duelists wielding dual sabers or double-bladed sabers affect the result chart? The only thing I can think of is that they might have some advantages in a bind result. Maybe once the bind breaks, the person with the extra saber blade gets +1D on their next action? |
After due reflection, here is my thought on that:
1). To use either dual sabers or a double-bladed saber increases the Lightsaber difficulty by one level (Very Difficult).
2). However, using either adds +1D to the character's Lightsaber skill, since they have an additional weapon to work with.
3). Characters who are untrained in the use of dual sabers or a double-bladed saber suffer a -1D MAP for using two weapons.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | That's what I was thinking. |
Thanks.  That helps a lot to understand where you were coming from. I will ponder what you have said for a bit before replying specifically.
BTW, I had a chance to walk thru the variant dueling rules with my co-GM. She liked the idea* of limiting the damage based on the degree of success of the attack roll vs parry roll, she seems to be leaning towards a difference between each row in the table of 5 pts like the difficulty table rather than 4 pts (as atgxtg suggested), and she loved the lose lightsaber option** to reduce the effect or row on the table.
* IIR, I got this from ZzaphodD.
** I got this from atgxtg. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | In the films, we see special moves in the form of disarms, knockdowns, brawling strikes, and the occasional grapple, so here is a variation on Bren's rules that includes that. |
I haven't done a detailed analysis, but if you want the variety and are willing to take on the added complexity of multiple tables, this could work. And it helps mitigate the complexity that the tables are the same for results of 0-10. It also looks like a GM could add the additional tables in a modular fashion, which is nice.
One problem I see is that for normal damage the table limits the max damage that results from a lightsaber vs. STR soak roll, but still requires a damage roll which could still fail to exceed the STR soak. I think this is the right approach and it automatically prevents the new system from generating a more severe result than the RAW would have done. However in the new tables a good brawling or knockdown roll results in automatic results that ignore the defenders STR. So in effect it is just as easy to knock out or knock down a 5D+ STR opponent as it is to knock out or knock down a 2D- STR opponent. That seems wrong. I think you should keep an effect vs STR roll as does the normal damage table. Similarly grappling should be affected by the difference in STR/Lifting of the two opponents.
| Quote: | | Loser can choose to downgrade to Serious Disarm on a Lightsaber reaction skill check @ +5 standard difficulty, but weapon lands 2D meters away instead of 1D. |
Nice. If you add disarm as an offensive option, you may want to limit the other options that I suggested for disarming. Or not. The characters do lose those darn things a lot. I guess there is no Force equivalent to two sided tape. 
| Quote: | | The way I'm thinking, based on their descriptions, the various Seven Lightsaber Forms may favor one Result choice over the others, or be more vulnerable. For instance, Form V might favor Knockdowns and Brawling Strikes, while Form II would be particularly resistant to Disarm results. |
I think of the forms as and elaborate form of rock-paper-scissors. This aligns with various passages in the novellization of RotS. Rather than each Form favoring a result, you may also want each Form vs. another Form to provide a bonus or penalty to a particular result(s). So some forms vs. say Makashi would have a penalty for disarm
Soresu would have a penalty for normal damage
Ataru would have a penalty for knockdown For now, this is probably too complex for me. I'd like to playtest what I listed for a while to get a sense of how well it works for normal damage before adding additional complexity. But what you propose seems like it would be easy to add in a modular fashion to the original 'normal damage' table.
| Quote: | 1). To use either dual sabers or a double-bladed saber increases the Lightsaber difficulty by one level (Very Difficult).
2). However, using either adds +1D to the character's Lightsaber skill, since they have an additional weapon to work with. |
But this means that for a character with a high skill there is no down side since they almost never roll below Very Difficult. So two blades or double blades is effectively always an advantage for high skill characters. Yet, we don't see many two weapon or double bladed weapon use in the films or the EU. I don't have any better solution in mind however.
| Quote: | | 3). Characters who are untrained in the use of dual sabers or a double-bladed saber suffer a -1D MAP for using two weapons. |
Makes sense. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
1). To use either dual sabers or a double-bladed saber increases the Lightsaber difficulty by one level (Very Difficult).
2). However, using either adds +1D to the character's Lightsaber skill, since they have an additional weapon to work with.
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I'm not sure where the mechanics stand at this point of the thread, but I would think that it may work better to have dual sabers add 1D to attack and subtract 1D from defense, while a double-bladed saber would add 1D to defense and subtract 1D from attack.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | One problem I see is that for normal damage the table limits the max damage that results from a lightsaber vs. STR soak roll, but still requires a damage roll which could still fail to exceed the STR soak. I think this is the right approach and it automatically prevents the new system from generating a more severe result than the RAW would have done. However in the new tables a good brawling or knockdown roll results in automatic results that ignore the defenders STR. So in effect it is just as easy to knock out or knock down a 5D+ STR opponent as it is to knock out or knock down a 2D- STR opponent. That seems wrong. I think you should keep an effect vs STR roll as does the normal damage table. |
Good point. This was written up on the fly so some errors are to be expected. I think the effect I was trying to capture was how some forms use finesse or leverage instead of strength to achieve the same result results. To come up with a dice roll that reflects that will be challenging.
| Quote: | | Similarly grappling should be affected by the difference in STR/Lifting of the two opponents. |
For that one, I just figured the opponents could use the Grappling rules as found in the RAW, with advantages to the attacker based on how well they rolled.
| Quote: | | For now, this is probably too complex for me. I'd like to playtest what I listed for a while to get a sense of how well it works for normal damage before adding additional complexity. But what you propose seems like it would be easy to add in a modular fashion to the original 'normal damage' table. |
Thanks. It's not bad for what it is, especially since I pretty much wrote it up from memory in under an hour. You should check out my new idea for Dun Moch, too; it's a little complicated, but it covers most of the bases without resorting to my old idea of Willpower failure forcing a DSP-risking action. With this rule, it uses dice penalties to narrow options instead.
| Quote: | | But this means that for a character with a high skill there is no down side since they almost never roll below Very Difficult. So two blades or double blades is effectively always an advantage for high skill characters. |
True. I've always looked at that as one of the perks for having paid the CP cost to get to that high skill level; it's a lot harder to fail your difficulty rolls. I plan on using this rule as part of my Seven Forms rule-set: to gain the training necessary to use dual sabers or a lightstaff without penalty, you have to pay a CP cost that could've been spent on increasing your skill level with a standard lightsaber, so either way you end up with a higher skill level and it all balances out.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I'm not sure where the mechanics stand at this point of the thread, but I would think that it may work better to have dual sabers add 1D to attack and subtract 1D from defense, while a double-bladed saber would add 1D to defense and subtract 1D from attack. |
I didn't want to get into the details of what could do what, as I'm not trained as swordsman to make that call. I just decided to make the rules as basic as possible: two blades = +1D bonus, but using them together counts as a MAP, so they cancel out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I think of the forms as and elaborate form of rock-paper-scissors. This aligns with various passages in the novellization of RotS. Rather than each Form favoring a result, you may also want each Form vs. another Form to provide a bonus or penalty to a particular result(s). So some forms vs. say Makashi would have a penalty for disarm
Soresu would have a penalty for normal damage
Ataru would have a penalty for knockdown |
This is going to be a long post, but it has definite bearing on the subject, so I made it a separate response. As part of side-bar conversation with atgxtg, I typed up the majority of an article from Star Wars Insider #62 (October of 2002). The article in question is called Fightsaber, written by Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack “Stelen” Bobo, and it is the origin of the concept of the Seven Forms, as well as the Marks of Contact. It even precedes the names for the various Forms (Makashi, Vaapad, etc.) I left out most of the Marks of Contact section, as it is little different from what can be found on Wookieepedia, but I feel the rest of the article is crucial as it lays out the original concept of the Seven Lightsaber Forms before KOTOR II came along and raped them. This article is the sole basis for my recent rules post on the Seven Forms, and after reading, I think you will have a much different perspective on the Seven Forms (although I agree that KOTOR II turned them into a video game version of rock-paper-scissors). I included most of the main text of the article, as well as several sidebars and photo captions.
THE SEVEN FORMS:
-Since the dawn of Jedi history, seven fighting disciplines have arisen, known as the Seven Forms. The Forms represent differing styles and philosophies of combat. Each Form has its respective merits, and as seen in Attack of the Clones, all of them are still in use.
FORM I
Millennia before the Clone Wars, advanced technology replaced metal swords with energy-beam lightsabers. In this transition, the first Form was born. Jedi Masters created Form I from ancient sword fighting traditions, since the principles of blade combat remained much the same. The basics of attack, parry, body target zones, and the practice drills called velocities are all here.
(Picture Caption: Young Jedi still begin their training by learning Form I.)
FORM II
The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat became Form II, advancing the precision of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree and producing the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. Today, Form II is an archaism studied by almost no one in the Jedi Order, because it is not relevant to current tactical situations, in which Jedi enemies rarely fight with lightsabers. Even with the resurgence of the Sith, confrontation of an enemy with a lightsaber is an exceedingly rare prospect for a Jedi, so they continue to focus on more practical Forms. Sith expecting to battle lightsaber-wielding Jedi, however, find Form II a powerful technique.
(Picture Caption: Form II is the chosen discipline of the Machiavellian Separatist Count Dooku, who wields it to devastating effect. His utterly precise moves overwhelm Jedi who are not accustomed to the special requirements of lightsaber dueling. With Form II Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda).
FORM III
The third great lightsaber discipline was first developed in response to the advancement of blaster technology in the galaxy. As these weapons spread widely into the hands of evildoers, Jedi had to develop unique means of defending themselves. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target area compared to the relatively open style of some of the other forms.
Obi-Wan Kenobi takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinn (who favored Form IV), since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul. True Form III masters are considered invincible. Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner.
(Picture Caption: During the fateful duel with Darth Vader on board the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields).
FORM IV
Form IV is the most acrobatic Form, heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force. Masters of Form IV incorporate all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible. Their lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. Yoda, with his deep emphasis on the Force in all things, is a Form IV master. Form IV was also the chosen discipline of Qui-Gon Jinn and the early choice of his apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi.
(Picture Caption: Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn employ acrobatic Form IV work during their battle against Darth Maul).
FORM V
During an era when Jedi were called upon to more actively maintain the peace in the galaxy, Form V arose alongside Form IV to address a need for greater power among Jedi. Jedi masters who felt that Form III could be too passive developed Form V. A Form III master might be undefeatable, but neither could he necessarily overcome his enemy. Form V focuses on strength and lightsaber attack moves. This Form exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately towards an opponent. A dedication to power and strength necessary to defeat an enemy characterizes the philosophy of Form V, which some Jedi describe by the maxim "peace through superior firepower". To some Jedi Knights, Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat; to others, Form V seems to foster an inappropriate focus on dominating others.
(Photo Caption: As the Clone War begins, Anakin Skywalker dedicates himself to Form V in his increasingly blind quest for strength. As Darth Vader he will still be using form V when he confronts Obi-Wan Kenobi and later Luke Skywalker.)
FORM VI
In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the standard in Jedi lightsaber training. The Form balances the emphases of other forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power.. It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy and negotiation. In practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star system. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.
(Photo Caption: In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. All the Form VI Jedi Knights who fight on Geonosis die in the arena battle).
FORM VII
Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V, but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy, since that focus is wielded more broadly. Form VII draws on a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure verges on explosion. Form VII is still under development, as few can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art.
(Photo Caption: This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability. Mace Windu is one of the only current practitioners of Form VII.)
MARKS OF CONTACT:
(Note: This section contained little information pertinent to the Seven Forms, so I left most of it out, except for one section)
-Damage or Destroy Weapon (sun djem)
Sun djem (disarming) was a goal of early Form I masters, since destroying an opponent's lightsaber could win victory without causing injury - always a Jedi aspiration. However, the advances of Form II soon made sun djem nearly impossible, since combatants trained studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged.
ANALYSES OF LIGHTSABER FIGHTS BY FILM:
-The Phantom Menace
By the time of the Battle of Naboo, Darth Maul is the product of many years of intense training in physical combat skills, and considers himself a master of a corrupt Sith version of Form VII. Maul's utter devotion to Form VII's physical focus is telling: he remains silent during his battle with the Jedi on Tatooine and Naboo, desiring a purely physical victory instead of pursuing the "higher" Sith tradition of dun moch - domination of his opponent's spirit, which Sith typically achieve through taunts that expose inner doubts and weakness.
(Photo Caption: Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi excellent use of Form IV's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII skills of Darth Maul.)
-Attack Of The Clones
Yoda ever focuses first on philosophy, his centuries-long lifespan giving him the luxury of great patience even for a Jedi. One result of his deep communion with the Force and exceedingly clear inner focus is his transcendent mastery of the lightsaber. Through the Force, Yoda takes Form IV to its highest level.
Yoda's astonishing moves in his epic duel against Count Dooku may be revealed on close examination to be a masterful demonstration of the standard components of Form IV. Yoda's moves flow from one to another in the smooth transitions characteristic of this Form. Three kinds of rotation, or su ma, figure prominently in Yoda's style. They are jung su ma (spinning), ton su ma (somersaults) and en su ma (cartwheels). These three moves represent the three possible axes of rotation in three-dimensional space. Together with flying Force-enhanced jumps, the rotational su ma moves compose most of Yoda's lightsaber fighting technique, making him the ultimate example of Form IV.
(Photo Caption 1: Ordinarily, Yoda walks with a slight limp, his ancient body wracked with arthritis and the normal infirmities of old age. In combat, however, the diminutive Jedi master presents extraordinary strength and reflexes - entirely the result of focusing the Force through his physical body and not just his spirit as is his usual emphasis.)
(Photo Caption 2: Anakin's overconfidence in his own abilities causes him to break out of his usual Form V routine and engage Dooku with the two lightsaber variant of Form IV).
-Revenge Of The Sith
[Note: Fightsaber was published before ROTS was released, so the article doesn't offer an analysis. However, Fightsaber's analysis features in the ROTS novel, so I can make some conjectures).
By the closing battles of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan and Anakin are among the pre-eminent lightsaber masters of the Order. The two Jedi have pursued opposing philosophies; Obi-Wan devoting himself to the defensive mindset of Form III, while Anakin, in his pursuit of greater power, has devoted himself to the strength and offensive abilities of Form V. When they face Dooku once again, the two experienced warriors lull the Sith Lord into overconfidence by opening the duel with the basic Form I and the stylistic Form IV before transitioning in mid-duel to Forms III and V, ultimately overpowering Dooku's Form II. In the climactic duel of Mustafar, when these two heroes face eachother in a battle to the death, Kenobi's experienced defense is evenly matched against Anakin's aggressive natural ability, and the battle is ultimately decided by Anakin's overconfidence, a common weakness of Sith Lords.
On Utapau, Grievous' formidable lightsaber training and lightning fast reflexes are insufficient to overcome Kenobi's Form III, as Kenobi uses subtle shifts in his parries to destroy Grievous' lightsabers one by one.
Back on Coruscant, four of the Jedi Order's greatest blademasters are almost insufficient to overcome the corrupted Form VII prowess of Darth Sidious. Only Mace Windu survives the initial duel; the ultimate test of his Form VII evolution form of Vaapad. If not for the actions of Anakin Skywalker at that critical moment, the fate of the galaxy would have been far different.
-A New Hope
When Obi-wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves. Neither has fought another lightsaber wielder for many years. Kenobi is an older man, and Vader a cyborg crippled by the lingering pain of the injuries that make his life-support suit necessary. Nonetheless, it is a life-and-death battle pitting Kneobi's defensive Form III mastery against Vader's angry Form V power. Classically, Form III allows Kenobi to hold off the Dark Lord but cannot bring him victory against the more powerful Form V. Kenobi instead chooses to surrender his body and become one with the Force. Kenobi's successful effort baffles Vader as his old master's body disappears at the moment of death.
(Sidebar & Photo Caption: Red crystals are normally unsuitable for lightsabers, as they are less stable than the customary green or blue crystals Jedi use for blade generators in their lightsabers. However, red crystals glow in harmonic vibration when energized by the Dark Side of the Force. When energized in this way, red "Sith" crystals can actually produce a stronger blade that has the rare potential to "break the blade" of Jedi lightsabers, overloading the energy matrix and burning out the saber of the unfortunate opponent. This rarely happens, but it is a known and frightening possibility in combat. Kenobi deploys his blade using a slow-materialization setting for maximum stability, since he is about to face a red Sith blade that could potentially cut through his own.)
-The Empire Strikes Back
By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his position within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents, both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as a testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. His technique lacks the advanced polish of study with lifelong masters, but he wields his Form V power with utter confidence against Luke Skywalker, masterfully taunting Skywalker as he seeks to dominate his spirit in the evil Sith tradition of Dun Moch.
In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. It is only Vader's much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.
-Return of the Jedi
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber techniques from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel on board the Second Death Star. Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts and Skywalker by his relative lack of experience dueling. But Skywalker's skill at blaster deflection is highly refined, and his lightsaber technique is so superb that he is able to duel the Dark Lord on even footing - and finally defeat a man who is a powerful living product of the ancient Jedi sword traditions from time immemorial. Such an achievement with little formal training is a testament to Skywalker's innate abilities and instinctive skill. Tremendously strong with the Force, Skywalker never crosses the line into Sith hatefulness and ceases his attack immediately upon rendering his foe helpless - an even more impressive demonstration of self-mastery than his lightsaber skills.
(Photo Caption: In his final assault on Vader, Luke Skywalker mirrors Vader's own Form V technique and responds with a furious demonstration of Form V's raw strength. An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle.)
(Sidebar: Yoda's Legacy - As they teach in the Temple, fighting styles are philosophical styles, and all battles are really battles of spirit. It is therefore interesting to observe that is is most of all Yoda's distinctive approach to the Force that determines not only his fighting style but much of the struggle that we see between the Jedi and the Sith. Yoda teaches open-mindedness far more than other Jedi Masters, and this leads to both great and terrible things in his disciples. In identifying what has happened to the "missing" planet Kamino, Yoda's young students are able to imagine a corruption of data in the Jedi Archive that the Archive's own director could not, because they could think for themselves.
But Yoda's other students - and their successors - pursue independence to other effects; Count Dooku leaves the Jedi Order and falls to the Dark Side, while Dooku's apprentice Qui-Gon Jinn repeatedly defies the Council and insists on training the dangerous Anakin Skywalker. Luke Skywalker, paradoxically, absorbs enough of Yoda's philosophy during his brief apprenticeship on Dagobah that Skywalker then defies Yoda's counsel and goes to Bespin to battle Darth Vader. In the end, Yoda's legacy is the greatest triumph of the Force: it is only Yoda's unique focus on open-mindedness that helps Luke Skywalker to see that his own mentors are wrong. He instead trusts his own belief that the only way to defeat Vader is through the very opposite of Dun Moch. To conquer Vader, Luke Skywalker creates a new kind of victory. Through a resolute validation of his opponent's spirit, a faith that overcomes all obstacles, Luke finally redeems Anakin Skywalker and brings balance to the Force.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: Re: re: Fightsaber |
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| Whill wrote: | | Thanks for that summary. I'll have to get out that issue and re-read that article. |
No problem. I ignore the video game influence of KOTOR II, and use this article as the sole source for accurate knowledge on the Seven Forms, with some additional material from the film novels to bolster it. Without KOTOR II's video game frippery, it is a lot simpler to look at the Form's description in Fightsaber and have it specialize in one area of combat (melee, defense, offense, speed & movement, moderation, etc.)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I think of the forms as and elaborate form of rock-paper-scissors. This aligns with various passages in the novellization of RotS. |
...but I feel the rest of the article is crucial as it lays out the original concept of the Seven Lightsaber Forms before KOTOR II came along and raped them. This article is the sole basis for my recent rules post on the Seven Forms, and after reading, I think you will have a much different perspective on the Seven Forms (although I agree that KOTOR II turned them into a video game version of rock-paper-scissors). |
That's a nice summary. I like that article and have read it and summaries of it in the past. I am unfamiliar with any of the KOTOR games, so they do not influence my POV. This article is one reason why I say the seven Forms are a form of rock, paper, scissors. In the summary I note that: Form II is good for dueling against most forms and avoiding disarms, but is not good for blaster parries and can be overwhelmed by Form V. So to use a simplified example we could say:Form II is superior (in offense) to Form III
Which is superior (in defense) to Form V
Which is superior in offense to Form II.
So II-->III-->V is like Scissors --> Paper --> Rock. Of course it's not as simple as rock-paper-scissors, but I think the idea of one form being at either an advantage or disadvantage against another form does apply and some type of 7x7 interaction table could display the various advantages and disadvantages. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | That's a nice summary. I like that article and have read it and summaries of it in the past. I am unfamiliar with any of the KOTOR games, so they do not influence my POV. |
KOTOR is the source of most of the details of the various Forms on Wookieepeida, apart from what Fightsaber and the film novels cover. Reading the article on lightsaber combat on Wookieepeida, the video game influence is readily apparent. The one that stands out is the idea that Form I was specialized as a form for use against multiple opponents, which gives it a specialization that was never part of the original intent. For that example, as well as others, I stick to the novels and Fightsaber for sources on developing D6 rules for the Seven Forms.
| Quote: | | Of course it's not as simple as rock-paper-scissors, but I think the idea of one form being at either an advantage or disadvantage against another form does apply and some type of 7x7 interaction table could display the various advantages and disadvantages. |
I looked into something similar, but IMO, there isn't enough factual evidence to support a detailed interaction table like that. It's not that it can't be done; it's more that at some point quite a few entries would be pure guesswork. As such, I decided to do a version of Seven Forms where each form got a simple dice bonus based on their advanced skill level, and that that bonus could only be applied to combat in certain situation specific to that Form, and then let the various bonuses apply the advantages and disadvantages for me.
As for Form V, I'm leaning toward giving it an advantage with my Stamina rule, in that other Forms trying to defend against Form V attacks makes the difficulty modifiers for the Stamina roll ramp up faster, which would also fit with Dooku's POV of the fight in the ROTS novel.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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There have been some really helpful comments on these variant dueling rules. So here is another related question.
These rules are designed for duels or important combats. Not for a Jedi fighting a few stormtroopers or battle droids. That then raises a question. Who decides and how is it decided when to use the more involved (and slower to resolve) rules for dueling and when to stick with the faster (but potentially deadlier) regular rules?
I had some thoughts, but no firm ideas so I would be interested to see what you folks think. Note that some of these schemes give control for invoking a duel to both the player and the GM and some give control only to the GM. Pick your poison or distill one or your own.
(A) Any character (PC or NPC) who possesses at least one FP could declare a duel in place of regular combat. If no character declares a duel, then regular combat proceeds. This would allow the player to trigger a duel or the GM to trigger a duel, but would eliminate duels when fighting mooks or normals i.e. characters without a FP.
(B) A character can trigger a duel by spending a FP to invoke duel rules. This makes duels less frequent since there is a FP cost associated. If the duel was a 'good' use then the FP is returned for light side characters. If the duel was an 'evil' use then dark side characters gain a FP for invoking a duel. So there is an incentive for the Dark Siders to get into duels with light siders.
(C) As (B), but the character triggering the duel is allowed to actually use the FP in the duel - though not in the first round. They are allowed to use the FP after say 1D6 rounds of dueling (GM rolls secretly). Or roll 1D6 at the beginning of each round, before initiative. On any round in which the die rolls is a 6, they are allowed to use the FP that triggered the duel that round (player rolls openly).
(D) A duel occurs whenever both opponents have at least one FP. (But a duel never occurs when the opponent starts the combat with 0 FPs.)
(E) A duel occurs whenever both opponents have the lightsaber combat skill up.
(F) The GM decides when a duel occurs and when regular combat occurs.
Thoughts? |
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