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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | ... the thing I love about d6 star wars is that the rule system and the game world are perfectly matched. The rules support the feel and themes of star wars. |
Absolute truth in that statement right there  I've never encountered such a wonderful marriage of rules and setting as WEG's SW.
That said, it is exactly this that makes house ruling and rule revising so damn difficult. It's a major balancing act maintaining the utter simplicity of the d6 system, its fit with the setting and making it work better and cover more instances. Not a small undertaking, and it's a factor that many would be rule makers cannot figure out (not saying I have )
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | cunning_kindred wrote: | | ... the thing I love about d6 star wars is that the rule system and the game world are perfectly matched. The rules support the feel and themes of star wars. |
Absolute truth in that statement right there I've never encountered such a wonderful marriage of rules and setting as WEG's SW.
That said, it is exactly this that makes house ruling and rule revising so damn difficult. It's a major balancing act maintaining the utter simplicity of the d6 system, its fit with the setting and making it work better and cover more instances. Not a small undertaking, and it's a factor that many would be rule makers cannot figure out (not saying I have ) |
I definitely can't argue with that! 
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Absolute truth in that statement right there :Wink: I've never encountered such a wonderful marriage of rules and setting as WEG's SW.
That said, it is exactly this that makes house ruling and rule revising so damn difficult. It's a major balancing act maintaining the utter simplicity of the d6 system, its fit with the setting and making it work better and cover more instances. Not a small undertaking, and it's a factor that many would be rule makers cannot figure out (not saying I have ) |
Oh, I agree. We've been back and forth over the rules many times and one of the elements that drove back many rules changes was what we came to call the the 'yuk' factor. It wasn't that the rule wasn't working as such it had just started to make the game not feel as star wars-y. In certain instances we have made the conscious decision to stick with something slightly less balanced but more in the feel of the game. The aforementioned tables probably fit into that category. They distracted from critical cinematic moments so we dumped them.
Of course, the only real way to know if a set of rules is more consistent, more balanced and still successfully captures the mood of the game is to try them out. That's what got us started on the revisions. We used to talk till we were blue in the face about what was balanced, what was not, and what could be done to fix it. Several of us ran different games and all of us had the odd house rule to fix our particular pet gripe but many suggestions were left untouched.
Then we decided to start implementing changes across all our games and really trying things out. We said: we're try it and if it doesn't work, we'll change back. Much of it didn't work for everyone... some of it did. Of course, everyone's sensibilities are different and I'm sure the rules we are playing by now would be very different if just one person involved had been different so I've never expected it to be to everyone's enjoyment. I only put it out there on the web because it seems a shame for only a few games in one small part of one small country to benefit from all this work when others might find ideas in there they want to try. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think there is a consensus here.
And there is past experience in the form of the two edtitons and other d6 variants produced by WEG. Each of which had thier own strengths and weaknesses.
For instance, for over feel and simplicy of play, I think First Edtion is great. But First Edtion had a lot of flaws, chief among them was that PCs quickly reached a point where the standard 4D baddies were not a threat.
Second edition fixed many of first editions weaknesses. Including introducing the wild die, thus allowing a stromtrooper to hit a PC at long range, but seemed to create other problems and questions making the game more complicated. For example, first edition templates were a nice, neat way to speed of character creation, but winging it was easy. In 2nd edition, skills are tied to templates, so players wanting to wing it basically have to write up a new template, turning something that speeded up character creation into something that slowed it down.
D6 Legend is quicker, gave us mutipliers for scaling, and tied the results closer to the die result, the d6 "system" gave rules for burst fire, and other refinements.
Whaa! I wish WEG hadn't gone bankrupt and lost the license for Star Wars so they could have updated the rules, fixed the rough spots, and incorporated the good bits from latter games into Star Wars. 
Well, I feel better. |
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cunning_kindred
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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But in a twisted sort of way we have more support and freedom now than ever. With the internet, as a star wars roleplayer, you have access to Wookpiedia (the greatest sourcebook ever written) and there are forums like this where people are preserving the old legacy and trying out new rules for people to experiment with.
It would have been nice to have an official WEG 3rd edition but its just like every house ruled system your find online. Some of us would have loved and embraced it and some of us would have been disappointed. No system has ever pleased everyone.
The d20 books might have an appalling system but they are well produced (lovingly so) and filled with all the information you might need. There are people like me writing versions of the rules that encompass all the new eras and there are people like Gry and the others in the tools forum converting all the new power, droids, vehicles and (well, everything) to d6. You even get to choose whose rules, variants and conversions you prefer and no player can hold the book up against you again.
It is sad but d6 star wars roleplaying goes on so its kind of bitter-sweet sad
... my I came over all sentimental  |
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Grimace
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe you don't realize, but there IS an official 3rd edition of D6 rules. They're not, of course, geared specifically for Star Wars, but they are a different set of rules (some say better, but it depends on your taste) for use in a space setting that are similar enough to Star Wars to use in that setting without dramatically upsetting things. It's called D6 Space. |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Maybe you don't realize, but there IS an official 3rd edition of D6 rules. They're not, of course, geared specifically for Star Wars, but they are a different set of rules (some say better, but it depends on your taste) for use in a space setting that are similar enough to Star Wars to use in that setting without dramatically upsetting things. It's called D6 Space. |
I was aware. I read the book most carefully. I read the Fantasy one as well. I thought there might have been a d6 adventure (if I remember correctly) but I never could find a copy of that one. |
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masque
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | I thought there might have been a d6 adventure (if I remember correctly) but I never could find a copy of that one. |
There is, I have all 3.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Maybe you don't realize, but there IS an official 3rd edition of D6 rules. They're not, of course, geared specifically for Star Wars, but they are a different set of rules (some say better, but it depends on your taste) for use in a space setting that are similar enough to Star Wars to use in that setting without dramatically upsetting things. It's called D6 Space. |
Yeah, I got Space too. It isn't really Star Wars. While there are a few rules from it I'_d consider swiping (like the burst and spray fire rules), for the most part it isn't much help for SW. |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | | Maybe you don't realize, but there IS an official 3rd edition of D6 rules. They're not, of course, geared specifically for Star Wars, but they are a different set of rules (some say better, but it depends on your taste) for use in a space setting that are similar enough to Star Wars to use in that setting without dramatically upsetting things. It's called D6 Space. |
Yeah, I got Space too. It isn't really Star Wars. While there are a few rules from it I'_d consider swiping (like the burst and spray fire rules), for the most part it isn't much help for SW. |
I've come to the same conclusion. The d6 Space stuff is kinda neat, but not really Star Wars. A lot of people here speak very highly of a lot of the elements from d6 Space, but I never found them appropriate for the setting.
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Grimace
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well I, for one, wouldn't say that D6 Space is better than Star Wars. The only reason I brought it up was because someone lamented the fact that there was never a 3rd edition that came out. I was demonstrating that essentially there was an official 3rd edition, it just had all of the Star Wars references removed from it and made into a generic space sort of rules set. The changes made to the game in the new core books (Space, Adventure and Fantasy) represent what we very likely would have seen had Star Wars stayed with D6.
So when I said "some say better, but it depends on your taste" I really meant it. Some really like the new rules. I'm not such a huge fan of them. I dislike a fair portion of the changes they made. From a technical standpoint, though, if you wanted an official set of rules for D6 that would be considered 3rd edition (and you certainly could use them for Star Wars) then those would be the rules to use. Whether you like them or not will depend on you. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: |
I've come to the same conclusion. The d6 Space stuff is kinda neat, but not really Star Wars. A lot of people here speak very highly of a lot of the elements from d6 Space, but I never found them appropriate for the setting. |
SPACE has got a few things I'd like to incorporate into Star Wars, including . Sweep attacks, burst/autofire rules, mortally wounded characters rolling Strength instead of 2D each round. I'd even like to pevert a few things and use them, like reverse engineering the full attack rule into having "full dodges" giving +2D instead of adding to the base difficulty.
But overall I don't see much there to make me want to use it for SW instead of the current rules.
If I were going to switch rules, I find d6 Legend more tempting. Legend is faster, and anything that adds speed to Star Wars helps in maintaining the right pace. |
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Nico_Davout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 384
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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I use skills from D6 space in my SW. I prefer less piloting skills. Anyone plays that way?
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schnarre
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | I happen to despise d20.
You need to decide what bonus you are going to give with a power. I believe you will find a table in enhance attribute. We've tried a number of different systems and the one we've finally settled on doesn't involve any tables at all (well, none worth talking about ).
As for roleplaying and roll-playing - there is a distinction between having an interest in the way that the rules work and powergaming. I'm a games designer. I like rules. I enjoy the mathematics, the strategies, involved there-in. Indeed, its my aim to make it as difficult as possible for anyone who would attempt to abuse the system.
A good rule system is all about supporting the roleplaying. I've played with a number of different systems and the thing I love about d6 star wars is that the rule system and the game world are perfectly matched. The rules support the feel and themes of star wars.
Indeed, when it comes to the Force, its the fact that the system becomes obsessed with breaking the Force down into easily definable packets where elsewhere its more fluid that the problem arises. My first attempt at 'fixing' the Force system was to bring the same fluid mechanics found elsewhere in the system to the Force. This didn't work because the Force is just too broad in what it is capable of doing. So I found a middle ground which I enjoyed - with rules that were fast but still rigid enough to enforce consistency and implemented it throughout the whole game. This is how I fixed it.
If you don't like the middle ground we as a group choose - and there is no reason to suppose everyone would - then the whole project will not appeal but if you want to be able to learn Vaapad, build a custom lightsaber, become an expert with a particular martial art, become a tactical mastermind and actually have these things mean something in the rules then what we've done will probably appeal.
Also, as I explained, we have worked hard to create a system where referring to the book (least of all flipping through tables) never ever happens. I want a person to be able to ignore the book when they are playing but when it comes time to sit down with the book between sessions I want it to be filled with options that players can long to purchase, powers they want the excitement of using, and above all... flexibility and choice.
| Quote: | | (Feats and Class abilities, anyone?) |
And this final comment seems a little strange. Feats and class abilities are already part of WEG. They are just another way of making rules. Disparaging the names that a particular system uses for what can be found throughout all systems just because you don't like the system seems a little foolish - no offense intended.
As I said, I do not like d20 - indeed, after pulling it apart and putting it back together again several times I came to hate its inconsistency and arbitrary nature. I can think of no system so completely unsuited to star wars in almost every way (although I will admit that Saga has taken strides in the right direction, its no where near far enough). That said, it is a very successful system and it does capture the feel of D&D perfectly. You might not like the game but there is nothing to ridicule in its design - a lot of hard working people spent a long time putting it together and, when it works, its a perfectly fun game to play - its just so NOT the right system for star wars. |
...I share your sentiments on d20! Completely!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| schnarre wrote: | | cunning_kindred wrote: | I happen to despise d20...
Feats and class abilities are already part of WEG. They are just another way of making rules. Disparaging the names that a particular system uses for what can be found throughout all systems just because you don't like the system seems a little foolish - no offense intended.
As I said, I do not like d20 - indeed, after pulling it apart and putting it back together again several times I came to hate its inconsistency and arbitrary nature. I can think of no system so completely unsuited to star wars in almost every way (although I will admit that Saga has taken strides in the right direction, its no where near far enough). That said, it is a very successful system and it does capture the feel of D&D perfectly. You might not like the game but there is nothing to ridicule in its design - a lot of hard working people spent a long time putting it together and, when it works, its a perfectly fun game to play - its just so NOT the right system for star wars. |
...I share your sentiments on d20! |
Me too, except that I also specifically despise classes and feats. They are most certainly not any part of my game. Templates, check (but you can of course make your own). Attributes and skills, check. A few alien special abiltities, check. Force powers, check. But classes and feats, hell no! It's not just the names for their rules. It is the specific mechanics themselves. They are part of the inconsistant and arbitary nature of the rules. The whole d20 system may work for D&D, but it is sooo wrong for Star Wars in every way.
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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