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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: | Giving this one a try, i may have some issue with crew nd weapons etc.
Craft: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier
Type: Assault Fleet Carrier
Scale: Dreadnaught
Length: 5500 Meters
-snip- |
Hmn, interesting choice; why 5500 Meters instead of Fractal's 3,550 meters? |
I basically felt that it was too small, I found the basic design, if a full "arrow" would be more like the belator, is why I did the 5500 meter lenght. I know the Wookiepedia says 3200ISH meter, but then again woookiepedia says many things
this was of course a suggestion and the ship was not seen next to or comared to any other in the fractalsponge pictures |
Ok, that's fair.
I think in my game/SWU i'll have the following;
• Impellor-class Fleet Carrier, Length 2,500 meters
• Impellor II-class Fleet Carrier, Length 3,550 meters
• Impellor III-class Fleet Carrier, Length 5,500 meters
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Length 2,500 meters[1] Fallacy or Failacy? |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | What are your 2¢? |
I don’t particularly care. The Procurator is too big to be viable as a combatant against a group of PCs; it’s overkill. If I had to pick, I’d default to Fractal because of the amount of effort and attention to detail he puts into his work, unlike whoever runs the EU, who basically seems to just throw random numbers at things.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | I basically felt that it was too small, I found the basic design, if a full "arrow" would be more like the belator, is why I did the 5500 meter lenght. I know the Wookiepedia says 3200ISH meter, but then again woookiepedia says many things |
Your eyes have deceived you; don’t trust them. The Impellor is a cut-down hull of the Compellor-Class Star Cruiser, not the Bellator. While the two are visually similar, the Compellor is considerably smaller (4,342 meters vs 7,264 meters).
I highly recommend you make use of the fan-maintained spreadsheet I linked above, as the information in it comes directly from Fractalsponge, and is thus more accurate than any opinions we might have.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | I think in my game/SWU i'll have the following;
• Impellor-class Fleet Carrier, Length 2,500 meters
• Impellor II-class Fleet Carrier, Length 3,550 meters
• Impellor III-class Fleet Carrier, Length 5,500 meters |
That’s… that’s not how this works. If a ship is 1,000 to 2,000 meters longer, it is now a completely different Class, not a Mk II or III of the same class. Mark differences are the result of technological upgrades or rearrangements of system’s placement on an otherwise unchanged basic framework. If you have a completely new hull that changes the length by 50-100%, it’s a completely different class of ship.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: | | I basically felt that it was too small, I found the basic design, if a full "arrow" would be more like the belator, is why I did the 5500 meter lenght. I know the Wookiepedia says 3200ISH meter, but then again woookiepedia says many things |
Your eyes have deceived you; don’t trust them. The Impellor is a cut-down hull of the Compellor-Class Star Cruiser, not the Bellator. While the two are visually similar, the Compellor is considerably smaller (4,342 meters vs 7,264 meters).
I highly recommend you make use of the fan-maintained spreadsheet I linked above, as the information in it comes directly from Fractalsponge, and is thus more accurate than any opinions we might have. |
learning something new every day, never heard of the compellor class, but yes, this looks like a sclaed down bellator. I will change the length to roughly 3000 meters, as the cutaway will reduce the lenght some |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | I will change the length to roughly 3000 meters, as the cutaway will reduce the length some |
The Impellor’s length, per Fractalsponge, is 3,550 meters. All of this information can be found on the Spreadsheet linked on the previous page.
EDIT: Also worth noting that Fractal’s version can carry 24 full wings plus a Corps of troops.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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For ease of reference, I just added the Spreadsheet link to the first post of this topic.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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After some reflection, this seems off. I’m assuming you see the Invictus as an Incursor in miniature (1/2 in all three dimensions = 1/8 the volume), yet still 1/2 the armament. There isn’t really a need to keep the Cantwell-designed ship if they’re both “cruisers”, since 310 meters puts it squarely in the frigate size range. I would suggest making the Invictus the same size as the Incursor, but strip the HTLs entirely, then give it improved sensors in trade. I’d also recommend at least basic anti-starfighter defenses and some kind of stealth system.
Also, “invictus” means “unconquerable” or “undefeated” in Latin, which is an odd choice for a recon platform.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Impellor-class Fleet Carrier |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | If a ship is 1,000 to 2,000 meters longer, it is now a completely different Class, not a Mk II or III of the same class. Mark differences are the result of technological upgrades or rearrangements of system’s placement on an otherwise unchanged basic framework. If you have a completely new hull that changes the length by 50-100%, it’s a completely different class of ship. |
I concur.
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:42 am Post subject: Invictus Armada, Invictus Imperia; Re: Impellor-class Fleet |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
After some reflection, this seems off. I’m assuming you see the Invictus as an Incursor in miniature (1/2 in all three dimensions = 1/8 the volume), yet still 1/2 the armament. There isn’t really a need to keep the Cantwell-designed ship if they’re both “cruisers”, since 310 meters puts it squarely in the frigate size range. I would suggest making the Invictus the same size as the Incursor, but strip the HTLs entirely, then give it improved sensors in trade. I’d also recommend at least basic anti-starfighter defenses and some kind of stealth system.
Also, “invictus” means “unconquerable” or “undefeated” in Latin, which is an odd choice for a recon platform. |
By Your logic,
Imperial-class Star Destroyer, Length 1,600 meters
> 1/2 = 800 meters
> 1/3 = 533.33333333333333333333333333333 meters
> 1/4 = 400 meters
> 1/5 = 320 meters
> 1/6 = 266.66666666666666666666666666667 meters
> 1/8 = 200 meters
> 1/10 = 160 meters
> 1/12 = 133.33333333333333333333333333333 meters
> 1/16 = 100 meters
> 1/32 = 50 meters
> 1/64 = 25 meters
Incursor-class Assault Cruiser, Length: 620 meters
-*- 1,600 meters/620 meters = 2.5806451612903225806451612903226
Invictus-class Recon Cruiser, Length: 310 meters
-*- 1,600 meters/310 meters = 1.2903225806451612903225806451613
1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/27
1/5 x 1/5 x 1/5 = 1/125
Imperial I Star Destroyer
60 Turbolaser Batteries
60 Ion Cannons
10 Tractor Beam Projectors
============================================
130 Capital-scale weapons
130 x 1/27 = 4.8148148148148148148148148148148 weapons for the Incursor
130 x 1/125 = 1.04 weapons for the Invictus
My Aggressive Reconnaissance Cruiser should have a bit more bite than a Carrack Cruiser or Nebulon-B.
I found a volumetric curve was overly complicated & i was painting myself into a corner. WEG seems to use a length-based sliding metric of some kind, so i made my own.
You may dislike a name choice, or question my reasoning, but calling it out without offering any suggestion for a better alternative is not helpful.
Tbh, i found it rather irksome.
| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | If a ship is 1,000 to 2,000 meters longer, it is now a completely different Class, not a Mk II or III of the same class. Mark differences are the result of technological upgrades or rearrangements of system’s placement on an otherwise unchanged basic framework. If you have a completely new hull that changes the length by 50-100%, it’s a completely different class of ship. |
I concur. |
Revision:
• Pompii/Imperious/Impellor Prototype-class Fleet Carrier, Length 2,500 meters
• Impellor-class Fleet Carrier, Length 3,550 meters
• ----------------------------class Fleet Carrier, Length 5,500 meters
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Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Invictus Armada, Invictus Imperia; Re: Impellor-class Fl |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | By Your logic, |
My logic is that firepower in SW ships is a function of reactor output, which is a function of reactor size/volume, which in turn is limited by a ship’s volume. A ship with 1/8th the volume of another (while also having essentially the same profile) should have a correspondingly smaller volume, smaller reactor volume/power output and firepower. 1/8 ≠ 1/2.
| Quote: | | WEG seems to use a length-based sliding metric of some kind, so i made my own. |
There’s nothing stopping you from duplicating a flawed aspect of the RAW, but it will influence the credibility of any arguments you may make in the future.
| Quote: | | Tbh, i found it rather irksome. |
There are many things I find irksome in this forum. In the end, however, it isn’t my role to police them, nor is there a group requirement on the sorts of information a response/opinion must contain.
With that, I will return to my regularly scheduled not caring about this ship.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Yora wrote: | Well done model.
But the design makes me think "morbidly obese Star Destroyer". |
| Whill wrote: | | Yeah, I'm not a fan of this one. There are too many engine thrust nozzles. The aft is just too busy looking with all that. |
So, a conversation on the Fractalsponge Discord resulted in a response to this, but also presents an exception to what I wrote here, specifically this:If a ship is 1,000 to 2,000 meters longer, it is now a completely different Class, not a Mk II or III of the same class. Mark differences are the result of technological upgrades or rearrangements of system’s placement on an otherwise unchanged basic framework. If you have a completely new hull that changes the length by 50-100%, it’s a completely different class of ship.
Per Fractal's class history of the Mandator series, the Mandator I and II were much smaller (8km long compared to the 12km Mandator III). I'm paraphrasing here, so this may not be fully accurate, but the bare bones version is that the Mandator I, while being a powerful defensive asset, was hugely limited in weaponry, navigation and range by the limits of the Ruusan Reformation. The Mandator II was developed in response to the growing tension that led to the Clone Wars, and was essentially a Mandator I with the limits in weaponry, navigation and range removed, allowing it to operate as a power projection asset instead of just a defensive one (presumably most Mandator I's were eventually updated to Mandator II standard before or during the Clone Wars).
The Mandator III, being much larger than its predecessors, should technically be a different class. Fractal's explanation for why it isn't is two-fold; first, that it uses many of the same components found in the Mandator I/II, just more of them (hence the busy stern, which mounts the same engines as its predecessors, just a lot more of them); second, that it was a bureaucratic sleight-of-hand to get it through Senate appropriations.
The motivation for the existence of the Mandator III was a reaction to the secret development by the Separatists of a class of Star Dreadnaughts that could overpower a Mandator I or II in a one-on-one battle, so the Republic needed a counter. My personal headcanon has the Bulwark-Class Battlecruiser as that Separatist Dreadnaught, as it was officially designed in Star Wars: Rebellion as an Alliance counter to the then-8,000 meter long Executor. So, my headcanon timeline would be:Mandator I exists.
Separatists begin building Bulwarks in secret.
Mandator II developed as tensions rise.
Clone Wars break out and Mandator I/II's prove inferior to Bulwark.
Mandator III rushed into development (thus the use of Mandator I/II components) as a counter to the Bulwarks.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Fractal posted his version of the Carrack a while back. I've considered simply adding the link to his image gallery to my updated version, but I just can't reconcile the weapons systems between the two. I'm thinking of reposting my version here, but with weapon stats that match what Fractal's is shown to have, specifically:2 Quad Heavy Turbolasers (Turret)
2 Heavy Turbolasers (1 Front/Left, 1 Front/Right) or alternately, 2 Ion Cannon
20 Dual Laser Cannon (5 Front/Left, 5 Front/Right, 5 Rear/Left, 5 Rear/Right)
6 Tractor Beam Projectors (2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right) Thoughts?
EDIT: I'm leaning toward the Ion Cannon mainly for ease of stat-writing, as it will be a lot easier to combine the fire of uniform weapon types, so a single HTL combining with a pair of Quad HTLs will be mathematically awkward and won't really provide much of a bump. In addition, adding a pair of ion cannon will allow the Carrack to operate in both tactical and operational pursuit roles (as in, both pursuit-to-capture and pursuit-to-track missions).
Also, while I have statted many of Fractal's ships with WEG-standard anti-starfighter weapons, it's worth noting that Fractal's anti-starfighter turret is actually a light turbolaser and a laser cannon in a coaxial mount. I haven't tried to write up stats for this (in my headcanon, LTLs are, at best, dual purpose weapons that can be used against starfighters in a limited capacity), but one possibility that occurs to me would be to fudge it a little and write stats for a single turret that mounts a heavy blaster cannon and a heavy laser, allowing a single turret to maximize utility against both heavy starfighters or transports (the heavy laser) or light starfighters or ordnance (the heavy blaster cannon).
EDIT: I asked Fractalsponge about swapping out the flank TLs for Ion Cannon. His response was "why not?"
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:40 am Post subject: |
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So, here's my revised version of the Carrack Cruiser, based on Fractalsponge's gallery.
Carrack Light (Pursuit) Cruiser
Images
Damorian Manufacturing Corporation's Carrack-Class Light Cruiser is the mainstay of the Imperial Navy's Pursuit formations. The vessel's heavy quad-turbolasers and ion cannon allow the Carrack to engage larger opponents with a reasonable chance of success. Backing up the heavy guns are a number of smaller defense turrets for use against starfighters and missiles, and tractor beams round out its armament, allowing for the capture of intact enemy starships.
Imperial Navy Pursuit ships have one of the more dangerous missions in the fleet. Equipped with improved hyperspace signal interceptors that can detect the flux shift of nearby craft jumping to hyperspace (which in turn allows the calculation of an escaping ship's hyperspace trajectory), a pursuit ship's mission is to maintain sensor contact with a retreating enemy until it jumps to hyperspace. This requires the ship to spend extended periods within gunnery range of enemy warships, which are often much more powerful than their pursuers.
To that end, the Carrack has been intentionally designed as one of the toughest starships in its size class. Layered bulkheads and compartmentalization, combined with a unique modular life support system, assures maximum crew survival in case of hull breaches. On numerous occasions, Imperial salvage craft have retrieved Carrack debris and found live crew members on board. These bulkheads lend strength to the hull, allowing Carracks to survive attacks that would destroy any other similarly sized vessel. Unlike most contemporary warships, the Carrack's command bridge and other vital systems are deep inside the hull, behind multiple layers of armor and the protection of the honeycombed compartmentalization network.
Compartmentalization does have one major drawback, though. Such a defense system takes up an inordinate amount of space. As a result, the Carrack-Class is one of the largest light cruisers not equipped with internal hangar bays. Instead, each Carrack carries four TIE fighters (usually /rc Recon variants) on a ventral external rack, as well as a handful of external docking fixtures that allow the transport of larger craft. Three large docks are sized for larger craft, such as assault shuttles or medium freighters (most Carracks have one assault shuttle permanently assigned), while six small docks are sized for starfighters or light shuttle / utility craft.
To compensate for their lack of integrated starfighter support, Carracks are equipped with powerful engines, making them among the fastest of the Empire's capital ships.
Craft: Damorian Manufacturing's Carrack-Class
Type: Light Cruiser
Scale: Frigate (+10D)
Length: 350 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: Carrack
Crew: 1,007 (500 @ +10) & 75 Gunners
Crew Skill:
Astrogation 3D+2
Capital Ship Gunnery 4D+2
Piloting 4D+1
Shields 4D
Sensors 4D+1
Passengers: 142 (troops)
Small Craft Complement: (External Hard-Docks)
--4 TIE Fighters
--1 Assault Shuttle
--4 utility craft
Cargo Capacity: 3,500 metric tons
Consumables: 1 year
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x12
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 2D
Space: 8 (4D)
Atmosphere: 365; 1,050 kph
Hull: 5D
Shields: 2D+2
Sensors:
Passive 30/0D
Scan 50/1D
Search 100/2D
Focus 4/3D
Hyperwave Signal Interceptor (Improved): +1D to Sensors and Astrogation when plotting a pursuit course to follow a ship that has jumped into hyperspace.
Weapons:
2 Quad Turbolaser Cannon
Fire Arc: Turret (1 Dorsal, 1 Ventral)
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Range:
--Space: 3-15/35/75
--Orbital: 6km-30km/70km/150km
--Atmosphere: 300m-1.5km/3.5km/7.5km
Rate of Fire: Varies by Fire-Linking
--Quad-Linked: 1/2
--Dual-Linked: 1 (-1D to Damage, +1D to Fire Control)
--Single-Fire: 2 (-2D to Damage, +2D to Fire Control)
Damage: 8D
2 Heavy Ion Cannon
Fire Arc: 1 Front/Left, 1 Front/Right
Crew: 4
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Range:
--Space: 1-10/25/50
--Orbital: 2km-20km/50km/100km
--Atmosphere: 100m-1km/2.5km/5km
Rate of Fire: 1/2
Damage: 6D (ionization)
20 Defense Turrets (Fire Separately)
Fire Arc: 5 Front/Left, 5 Front/Right, 5 Rear/Left, 5 Rear/Right
Scale: Starship (+6D)
Crew: 1
Skill: Starship GunneryFire Control: 3D
CANNON TYPES (One of each. Gunner may fire one cannon per round):Heavy Laser Cannon
Range:
--Space: 1-3/12/25
--Orbital: 2km-6km/24km/50km
--Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 6D
Heavy Blaster Cannon
Range:
--Space: 1-5/10/17
--Atmosphere: 100m-500m/1km/1.7km
Rate of Fire: 2D Auto-Fire
Damage: 4D 5 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right
Scale: Special*
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Range:
--Space: 1-3/10/20
--Orbital: 2km-6km/20km/40km
--Atmosphere: 100m-300m/1km/2km
Rate of Fire: 1 (Full Round)
Damage: 4D
*May switch between Frigate (+10D) and Starship (+6D). Switch takes one round, during which the projector can not be used.
House Rule Notes:COMMAND DIFFICULTY MODIFIER: +11
SHIELD & SHIELD CONTROL: 2D+2 @ 2D
VELOCITY MODIFIER: 2D Flight
BATTERY DICE:Quad Turbolaser Cannon: 1D Turret
Point Defense Cannon: 2D+1 Front, 2D+1 Left, 2D+1 Right, 2D+1 Rear (1D Discretionary)
Tractor Beam Projectors: 1D Front, 1D Left, 1D Right, 0D
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Fractal's latest big project: the Arc Hammer.
I really like the direction he's gone with this. Rather than a unique vessel, it's a class of armed support ships, with the internal factory spaces and the towers being modular, so that they can be swapped out for different facilities depending on mission needs (such as for research into super-soldier development projects rather than starship repair / construction).
He's also designed it to mate with his Novator-Class Mobile Dockyard (as seen here and here) as a mobile shipyard complex.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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