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ImpSB Sector Group Organization: How To Improve It
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Well, with regard to the multi-shot grenade launcher, it could do a lot more work than a single shot auxiliary grenade launcher.

Also, you could rule that the special weapons teams grenadiers have access to a larger variety of grenade types and that the grenade launchers have more advanced hardware (sighting systems, etc) on them.

For example, if you think of the grenade launcher like a shotgun with a 3.5-inch chamber, you can load it with shells ranging from 2.75 (in some cases, even smaller) up to 3.5 inches depending on how much capacity vs. power you want.

That's what I'm thinking: a pump-action under-barrel launcher ala the ones in Aliens. The next step up would be a burst-firing "assault grenade launcher" with a carousel-type drum magazine, then a tripod-mounted full-auto variant, all using the same basic grenade (streamlining logistics)

Quote:
While we're at it, you could make anti-personnel missile launchers that fire more or less "straight" (as opposed to lobbing).

That could just as easily be a specialist grenade type, maybe with a gyro-jet to reduce recoil, that uses either timed or proximity detonated airbursts. I recall hearing about something similar being in service in the real-world...


Quote:
You mentioned "holstering" a carbine. I'm guessing that your definition of "carbine" here is significantly different from the real world (modern) notion (or perhaps you were using the term "holster" loosely)?

Even a PDW (a step below a carbine) is too big to be holstered IRL. The closest thing I can think of is an MP7 or Uzi or something along those lines.

IMO, having two long guns is just too much to be carrying around from a "practical, tactical" standpoint, even if we're talking about something like an M4 and an MP5.

I'm picturing the "blaster rifle" carried by the stormtroopers in ANH as actually being blaster carbines; short barrel, folding stock, good in close quarters (like on a Death Star or ship boarding actions), while the blaster rifles would be more along the lines of the long-barrel, fixed-stock weapons used in Mos Eisley or by the Rebel Troops at the Battle of Hoth. Note that the stormtrooper utility belts seen in ANH all have an elongated holster for the blaster.

Quote:
I'm not sure how ammo works for an ion gun, but I assume that the trooper would have to then have ammo for both (unless he just runs with whatever comes in the ion gun and doesn't bother to have reloads on his person... I could see this being a thing... the ion gun not likely to need dozens and dozens of shots as it would not be used in a true firefight, but rather against incidental targets along the way).

Agreed. The DEMP gun is available either as a pistol or a carbine, although I think its stats need a bit of a rework.

Incidentally, I mentioned this project in a conversation over on Fractalsponge's page, and he mentioned FM-100-2-3 as a source on the Soviet Army. I'd never heard of it before, but I have it downloaded now, and I've got some reading to do.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

That's what I'm thinking: a pump-action under-barrel launcher ala the ones in Aliens. The next step up would be a burst-firing "assault grenade launcher" with a carousel-type drum magazine, then a tripod-mounted full-auto variant, all using the same basic grenade (streamlining logistics)


I suppose it's been done with respect to the "master key" 870 receiver mounted under an M4 barrel, though, these would, I suppose be "micro grenades" or whatever (which may be just fine considering Star Wars tech).

It seems a bit "over powered" for RPG purposes, but maybe that doesn't really matter.

From a gaming standpoint, I'd want an auxiliary grenade launcher to be for incidental circumstances, rather than functioning in the capacity (or nearly so) of a primary weapon.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, finding FM-100-2-3 lead me to two other declassified documents: -100-2-1 and -100-2-2. -2-1 in particular is interesting, as it goes into a lot of detail as to the strategy and tactics used by the Red Army at all levels. While there are definite areas where Soviet Russia and the Galactic Empire are completely different, there is enough similarity (specifically, that both are militaries fielded by authoritarian governments, and both are extremely large with doctrine built around maximizing their size to the utmost) that there is a lot there to work with. I've got a lot of reading to do, and much to grok, but this is exactly the resource I've been looking for for a detailed rebuild of the Imperial Army.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're looking forward to the results of your research, CRM. Keep at it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
We're looking forward to the results of your research, CRM. Keep at it.

Thanks. The only drawback is that it can either done quickly or done right, not both.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A random thought...

The ImpSB describes stormtrooper units as being the equivalent of Line Units. It occurs to me that Special Missions units might be a better fit.

-Despite the jokes about stormtrooper shooting accuracy, they are apparently well known for their shooting precision (per Obi-wan).

-Special Missions support personnel are all cross-trained for combat duty, which is, IMO, more realistic than stating that there are no support personnel at all.

-Includes organic heavy weapons and biker scout units (at the Battalion level), as well as room for a Storm Commando platoon (replacing the security platoon in the Battalion HQ).
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Stormtroopers step into the Imperial Army Special Missions niche?
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
A random thought...

The ImpSB describes stormtrooper units as being the equivalent of Line Units. It occurs to me that Special Missions units might be a better fit.

-Despite the jokes about stormtrooper shooting accuracy, they are apparently well known for their shooting precision (per Obi-wan).



Obi wan's opinion might be a little out of date by then. He was used to the Clone Troopers by the end of a violent conflict. Quality has appeared to drop off significantly since then. There are several in-universe explanations for why that might be; but nothing definitive to my knowledge.

Inferiority of the non-clone stock seems to crop up a lot.


Quote:

"Since the Empire has redirected the clone trooper program to other pursuits and stepped up recruiting inferior humans from the Outer Rim, the operational effectiveness of this army has declined significantly."
―Commander Cody[src]
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Despite the jokes about stormtrooper shooting accuracy, they are apparently well known for their shooting precision (per Obi-wan).

The weight of evidence in the classic trilogy alone is strongly against the accuracy of Obi-Wan's statement. Statements made by characters in-universe are not always correct in-universe.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Obi wan's opinion might be a little out of date by then. He was used to the Clone Troopers by the end of a violent conflict. Quality has appeared to drop off significantly since then. There are several in-universe explanations for why that might be; but nothing definitive to my knowledge.

Inferiority of the non-clone stock seems to crop up a lot.


Quote:

"Since the Empire has redirected the clone trooper program to other pursuits and stepped up recruiting inferior humans from the Outer Rim, the operational effectiveness of this army has declined significantly."
―Commander Cody[src]


Yes. The difference was a story-requirement. The clonetroopers had to be competent enough to believably defeat the Jedi, but stormtroopers had to be incompetent enough to believably be defeated by Rebels (with very few Jedi).

So insert [explanations]. However, if Obi-Wan's statements are taken as hyperbolic, they are probably still true from a certain point of view. Stormtroopers are probably more precise than sand people, who were specifically being compared to stormtroopers at that point. So it's all relative.*


*mental note to stat sand people with a lower blaster skill than stormtroopers
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The weight of evidence in the classic trilogy alone is strongly against the accuracy of Obi-Wan's statement. Statements made by characters in-universe are not always correct in-universe.

They seem to do fine when facing anyone other than hero characters. That's what putting dice in Dodge will do for you, I suppose.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
So Stormtroopers step into the Imperial Army Special Missions niche?

More that the two will use similar organizational structure because of the nature of the missions they undertake. I'm leaning strongly towards reclassifying Special Missions as something more along the lines of Marines / Airborne / Light Infantry, tasked primarily with infantry combat in confined conditions (forests, mountains, urban, etc), possibly calling them Ranger units, with Line units being reclassified primarily as garrison troops used to hold ground taken by other, more capable units, or to fight defensively to protect Imperial assets (cities, factories, etc) rather than going on the offense. The presence of energy shields and the like makes trench and siege warfare somewhat more viable on the defense than it does in the modern world.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Despite the jokes about stormtrooper shooting accuracy, they are apparently well known for their shooting precision (per Obi-wan).

The weight of evidence in the classic trilogy alone is strongly against the accuracy of Obi-Wan's statement. Statements made by characters in-universe are not always correct in-universe.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Obi wan's opinion might be a little out of date by then. He was used to the Clone Troopers by the end of a violent conflict. Quality has appeared to drop off significantly since then. There are several in-universe explanations for why that might be; but nothing definitive to my knowledge.

Inferiority of the non-clone stock seems to crop up a lot.


Quote:

"Since the Empire has redirected the clone trooper program to other pursuits and stepped up recruiting inferior humans from the Outer Rim, the operational effectiveness of this army has declined significantly."
―Commander Cody[src]


Yes. The difference was a story-requirement. The clonetroopers had to be competent enough to believably defeat the Jedi, but stormtroopers had to be incompetent enough to believably be defeated by Rebels (with very few Jedi).

So insert [explanations]. However, if Obi-Wan's statements are taken as hyperbolic, they are probably still true from a certain point of view. Stormtroopers are probably more precise than sand people, who were specifically being compared to stormtroopers at that point. So it's all relative.*


*mental note to stat sand people with a lower blaster skill than stormtroopers


Of course this begs the question of how well regular army troops stack up against storm troopers and of course, rebel troopers.

Concerning CRM's perspective and the "certain point of view" doctrine, we might also consider how well "an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops" faired against the rebels in Jedi, and whether Palpatine's assessment of the competence of his forces could/should be accurate in-universe.

The empire's "best troops" sure gave those ewoks the what for! (Snicker, snicker).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The weight of evidence in the classic trilogy alone is strongly against the accuracy of Obi-Wan's statement. Statements made by characters in-universe are not always correct in-universe.

They seem to do fine when facing anyone other than hero characters. That's what putting dice in Dodge will do for you, I suppose.


What level of Dodge skill do Artoo and Threepio have?



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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The weight of evidence in the classic trilogy alone is strongly against the accuracy of Obi-Wan's statement. Statements made by characters in-universe are not always correct in-universe.

They seem to do fine when facing anyone other than hero characters. That's what putting dice in Dodge will do for you, I suppose.


What level of Dodge skill do Artoo and Threepio have?




In the Stormies defence, they actually did quite well shooting PAST the droids as they aimed at the threats down the corridor shooting back!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fully acknowledging Whill's joke, I'll agree with Dredwulf. In an RPG system such as D6, there is no risk of hitting what you are not aiming at.

I've mentioned this before, but, if we use footage from the films to justify rules for a skill that is not in use, then we would have to also come up with rules for where a missed shot would impact, potentially hitting younglings on the other side of a wall or innocents in the cantina, etc.
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