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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Based on your formula, I think you mean -1D-2 for this one. |
| Quote: | | Likewise, I think you mean -2D-2 here. |
I get what you mean, but I just can’t wrap my head around the different notation. I prefer to interpret it as “subtract the value ‘2D+2’ or ‘1D+2’ from the given dice total, so a player with 4D Astrogation would subtract a D and 2 pips. |
If you mustn't eliminate the "+" from the original expression, then please at least notate them this way: -(1D+2) and -(2D+2). That way the expressions are still mathematically correct with respect to the distributive property. |
Honestly, I’m not really a fan of that, either. I can understand why a mathematically minded person would find it objectionable, but it just rubs me the wrong way for some undefinable reason. |
Expect people to be confused for a definable reason.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I expect there will be confusion no matter what I do.
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raithyn
Ensign
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that -(xD+y) is awkward.
There are a few fan supplements that use the -xD+y notation. (Interestingly, I couldn't find a single use of -xD+y or -xD-y in an official source.) It was confusing when I first saw it but I quickly came to treat xD+y as a single variable with a defined minimum, maximum, and mean.
I've shied away from complex systems of modifiers though, so I don't have to consider the interaction of multiple bonuses and penalties very often. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | I agree that -(xD+y) is awkward. It was confusing when I first saw it but I quickly came to treat xD+y as a single variable with a defined minimum, maximum, and mean. |
"Awkward" is used here subjectively, but that expression is objectively true to the intended meaning. It's not at all confusing from a middle school algebra perspective.
| raithyn wrote: | | (Interestingly, I couldn't find a single use of -xD+y or -xD-y in an official source.) |
This is a house rule for navicomputers, which in RAW don't have die codes at all. He wanted non-limited navicomputers to provide positive die code bonuses to astrogators based on navicomputer quality (makes perfect sense to me) but also symmetrically make limited navicomputers be more like standard ones that instead have penalties. It's kinda like how we were rating computer types in this thread.
However in that thread CRM said, "technology should have limits." I personally am ok with the original limits of limited navicomputers not allowing the plotting of new courses at all (even with a penalty) because they were designed to only store and implement data that has been provided by a standard navicomputer computer. I do not see any need to go backwards from 0D standard navicomputers by changing limited navicomputers to negative navicomputers, so the specific notation chosen for that house rule doesn't ultimately matter to me as I have no pod in the race. I just have a knee jerk to the mathematically inaccurate die code expressions, but CRM wants it how he wants it and knows some will be confused. Sadly, some people may also be confused by accurate expressions as well (but at least they would be correct).
Now I can see penalizing standard navicomputers to represent them having not been updated in a long time, not that it would come up that often. Say a PC ship is wrecked (the navicomputer is inoperable), the PCs are stranded somewhere, and the only available ship is an old one they find that hasn't been flown in 100 years. Maybe they could use parts from their ship to get the old one up and running, but they are stuck with an out-of-date navicomputer that makes astrogation more difficult. Something like that.
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raithyn
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Joined: 24 Jun 2023
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think I may have been clear. I don't see an official example to fall back on so ultimately it comes down to individual preference.
Writing -2D-1 is also valid but just doesn't work for me. Distributing the sign breaks my ability to treat xD+y as a single variable and quickly run the math.
I agree that -(2D+1) is not confusing in a mathematical sense. I started by writing my game prep notes with this notation.
I didn't like -2D+1 at all when I first saw it in other fan works unrelated to this specific case but I got used to it quickly. It's now my preferred notation. I fully understand why you don't like it. The key for me is to rest the + as part of the variable, not as an operator. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | I quickly came to treat xD+y as a single variable with a defined minimum, maximum, and mean. |
Well put. My mathematical vocabulary is a bit rusty, so that description is much appreciated. Another possible definition would be a finite math value, where the D+pip value is an expression of a set of possible results.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | "Awkward" is used here subjectively, but that expression is objectively true to the intended meaning. It's not at all confusing from a middle school algebra perspective. |
But it can be depending on how one conceptually views what a D+pip value is.
| Quote: | | I do not see any need to go backwards from 0D standard navicomputers by changing limited navicomputers to negative navicomputers, |
An alternate possibility would be to have the different grades of Limited expressed as a Difficulty Modifier, like Limited (+10). Since I’m developing an Astrogation system where jumps have a Difficulty based on length and how well traveled they are, a Limited Navcomputer that bumps up the Difficulty on all jumps would also nicely represent a Navcomputer with reduced route data storage capacity, without the confusion of a negative dice value.
| Quote: | | Now I can see penalizing standard navicomputers to represent them having not been updated in a long time, not that it would come up that often. Say a PC ship is wrecked (the navicomputer is inoperable), the PCs are stranded somewhere, and the only available ship is an old one they find that hasn't been flown in 100 years. Maybe they could use parts from their ship to get the old one up and running, but they are stuck with an out-of-date navicomputer that makes astrogation more difficult. Something like that. |
That brings up an interesting possibility. In your link above, we discussed how individual programs (per Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide) are essential AI’s with a highly focused skill set, able to make educated guesses and conjectures based on the data they actually had. What if a hyperspace route had the same ability, and could extrapolate how a given course might shift over time?
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | An alternate possibility would be to have the different grades of Limited expressed as a Difficulty Modifier, like Limited (+10). Since I’m developing an Astrogation system where jumps have a Difficulty based on length and how well traveled they are, a Limited Navcomputer that bumps up the Difficulty on all jumps would also nicely represent a Navcomputer with reduced route data storage capacity, without the confusion of a negative dice value. |
Difficulty Levels
In my game, this is how I handle a lot of things, instead of giving a skillroll a modifer I have something modify the difficulty - or specificlly;
Shifting the target Difficulty Level.
This allows for very easy translation in terminology etc. To make it even easier, I have numbered that difficulty levels.
For example;
DL1 - Very easy
DL2 - Easy
DL3 - Moderate
and so on.
That way I can use a simple nomenclature of +1DL, or -1DL.
(instead of constantly writing "increase difficulty one level....").
Now, for more consistency - I have added more levels, and smoothed out the distribution (all have target numbers in increments of 5). Again, this allows for easy of use and consistency. (otherwise a +1DL might mean something different at the high end).
Say, some negative factor is a +1DL, that means a task which is currently Easy, which is DL2, would increase to Moderate - which is DL3.
While not a big deal in this specific instance (the topic of this post) the concept of shifting difficulty levels has been a big boon in my house rules overhaul, in allowing for a lot more consistent nomenclature, terminology and structure to the rules..... (no, it may not seem so - but when you are doing massive changes - better structure helps a lot). but I digress..
Player Mod vs. Difficulty Modifer.
Typically, I only give modifiers to the player based on things directly affecting them - being wounded or distracted, tired, etc. That way players are not having to lose dice.
Where as things that are affected by the situation (more complex task, damaged equipment, environmental conditions etc.) I modify the Difficulty Level.
Anyway - only slightly relevant to a portion of this thread - but as someone who has been working quite some time with the concept - shifting of difficulty level works pretty well for my game.
Also, it is not really necessary to do the whole DL thing - could just do it +5 or 10 or whatever - that works too.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, Pak.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But it can be depending on how one conceptually views what a D+pip value is. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | raithyn wrote: | | I quickly came to treat xD+y as a single variable with a defined minimum, maximum, and mean. |
My mathematical vocabulary is a bit rusty, so that description is much appreciated. Another possible definition would be a finite math value, where the D+pip value is an expression of a set of possible results. |
Yes, "xD+y" is an expression. To preserve the original expression (with "+" in the middle) when you negate the entire expression, you must use parentheses or the negative sign only applies to the first term in the expression (the xD only). Parentheses means 'do this first' so you get your xD+y die roll result, and then you negate it.
My mathematical vocabulary is very rusty because it has been 29 years since I graduated with my Bachelor of Science degree in Mathematics. But thankfully we aren't talking about differential equations (advanced calculus) or any abstract algebras.
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