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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Excerpted from the description of Danger Sense:"When this power is used, the Jedi detects any attacks the round before they are made. This gives the Jedi a round to decide how to react to the danger. In game terms, if any character is going to attack a Jedi on the next round, they must declare their action the round before it happens."
Attacking someone with a poisoned arrow is different from shooting someone with a regular arrow, and saying otherwise is blatant rules-lawyering that undercuts the intent of the power. The idea is that the Jedi has a chance to react appropriately, and knowing that he is facing a poisoned arrow over a regular arrow may be the deciding factor in whether or not he spends a CP or FP to counter it.
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 am Post subject: |
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I mentioned this situation before: the players must declare their action as to MG. Had the attacker some different types of arrow I would require him to tell me which one he plans to use. Then the Jedi would know. If I the attacker had one type of arrow, I do not need that declaration, because I know, all of them have the same effect.
Another example. 1 Jedi fighting against 5 Sith Acolytes. He uses danger sense (success). GM tells him: "1 will attack you twice with a purple lighsaber from the right, another with red will perform 1 attack from the left, another with crimson (will attemp to jump over you and attack you once from behind, 4th will attempt Telekinetic kill, and last one will throw a rock at you from where he stands" Technically its okay - it's clear RAW.
But, as you propose, it should be:
The Sith with purple lightsaber will attack you twice. He has a modified saber: 5D+2 with Dragite Crystal that deals additional 1D of sonic damage.
Second one, with the red lighsaber will attack you from the left. He has Hurrikane Crystal that grants him bonus to hit +1D to targets in armor and you are wearing Jedi Armor. He has also Krayt Dragon Pearl (damage bonus +2D, which makes his saber the most dangerous of all of them.
PS. Given crystal stats are not official. Used only for example purposes.
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nuclearwookiee
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Joined: 28 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Please explain how someone that can literally sense the future (as in, be aware of attacks before they happen) would not also sense the shooter's attempts to "take advantage of holes in his defenses." |
It's not a matter of failing to sense an attack. Even if LSC amounts to "knowing the future" (and we all know how well the ability to know the future worked out for the Jedi *cough* Order 66 *cough*), there is a difference between knowing the future and discerning and executing the correct pattern in which to wave your lightsaber. LSC gives Jedi an edge--it doesn't make them infallible.
Your own rule supports the conclusion that Jedi can fail. You didn't propose eliminating the difficulty of parrying a blaster bolt; you proposed a static difficulty number. Presumably, this means that a Jedi who rolls below your static difficulty fails to parry. So up to the point of your last post, nobody was arguing about whether a Jedi could fail to parry; the question was what the threshold of failure should be.
If you now can't accept the notion that "someone that can literally sense the future" can fail, then you need to reevaluate the question originally posed in this thread. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Whill wrote wrote: | | Yes, the AotC prologue novel The Approaching Storm (or as I retitled it, When Animals Attack Jedi) had a stupid part where Obi-Wan and Anakin literally fell for the 'smell my flower' clown gag and fell unconscious due to nerve gas or some such. |
Example of Danger Sense controlled by GM, failed, but was it done for the goodness of the plot?  |
But it didn't help the plot though. It did however help support the assertion that ADF is overrated. 8)
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Excerpted from the description of Danger Sense:"When this power is used, the Jedi detects any attacks the round before they are made. This gives the Jedi a round to decide how to react to the danger. In game terms, if any character is going to attack a Jedi on the next round, they must declare their action the round before it happens." Attacking someone with a poisoned arrow is different from shooting someone with a regular arrow, and saying otherwise is blatant rules-lawyering that undercuts the intent of the power. The idea is that the Jedi has a chance to react appropriately, and knowing that he is facing a poisoned arrow over a regular arrow may be the deciding factor in whether or not he spends a CP or FP to counter it. |
Since players must "declare their action" the round before it happens, I feel RAW's intent is that the specific action must be declared, not just that they will attack. In this case that would be that "I will shoot an arrow at the Jedi". However, I would rule that nocking the arrow into firing position is an action, so if this wasn't prepared in advance there is no way even a non-Jedi character would not know that an arrow attack is coming if they can see the archer.
I don't feel the rule technically means that the archer must announce there is poison on the arrow, since a non-poisoned arrow is still dangerous too. But poisoned arrows in Star Wars? This does sound like something only an evil GM using RAW would do specifically to defeat Jedi characters with Danger Sense. That is anathema to this spirit of the game itself. The point of this game is for the group of gamers to co-create entertaining Star Wars stories. GMs shouldn't be out to kill PCs, even if rules-lawyering allows it under RAW.
| Quote: | 8. Default game rules... However many of us here are tinkerer GMs, so when debating the merit of tweaks and new house rules, please keep in mind that the official rules are not inherently superior by virtue of being officially published.
9. Consensus and Criticism. There is never any requirement to achieve consensus on anything discussed on these forums, so please do not feel inhibited from expressing a minority opinion. And asking for thoughts opens the door to a wide range of responses, including criticism. Even without asking, posting anything invites criticism. It is unrealistic to only expect support for an idea you post, and if you can't handle criticism please reconsider posting it. On the other hand, if you vehemently oppose an idea and/or don't have anything to add to the discussion, please consider just moving on. And in any case, please try to keep criticism constructive when possible. |
If people don't like your interpretation of RAW or suggested house rules, oh well. They don't have to.
If a GM wants to have Danger Sense or lightsaber range attack parries work differently based on the deadliness level of the danger, let him. If he wants to have the Jedi alerted to the specific form of danger to make the best decision on how to counter it, let him. If you vehemently oppose a rules idea you won't use and don't have anything to add to the discussion, in the immortal words of Obi-Wan, please "move along." Thanks.
I think we are getting off track from what this thread was about, giving shooters a chance to overwhelm a Jedi's defenses with a barrage of blaster fire in light of RAW having one lightsaber blaster parry roll apply all blaster attacks that round without being further MAPed. Has that discussion run its course?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | | I mentioned this situation before: the players must declare their action as to MG. Had the attacker some different types of arrow I would require him to tell me which one he plans to use. Then the Jedi would know. If I the attacker had one type of arrow, I do not need that declaration, because I know, all of them have the same effect. |
Two different types of damage (arrow first, poison later) is two different kinds of attacks. At the very least, as I said before, Danger Sense should warn the Jedi/Sith that there is something oddly more dangerous about the arrows themselves, even if it doesn't specify exactly what. You are essentially stacking two attacks together, then presuming that the second attack will be hidden from the Force just because it doesn't look any different. I believe there was something said about the Force vs. appearances.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| nuclearwookiee wrote: | | It's not a matter of failing to sense an attack. Even if LSC amounts to "knowing the future" (and we all know how well the ability to know the future worked out for the Jedi *cough* Order 66 *cough*), there is a difference between knowing the future and discerning and executing the correct pattern in which to wave your lightsaber. LSC gives Jedi an edge--it doesn't make them infallible. |
I have no problem with adding modifiers to Danger Sense that make it so Jedi can fail their Sense roll; there is plenty of film evidence to support that. I simply disagree that a gunner "shooting at holes in the Jedi's defenses" suffices to explain the RAW for Lightsaber vs. Blaster. If Lightsaber Combat gives a Jedi the ability to know where to place his lightsaber so as to deflect incoming blaster fire, this will still apply to shots made by a marksman trying to "shoot at the holes". The only way to the override this is to put out such a huge volume of fire that the Jedi can't keep up. The value of a high Blaster skill there is the ability to place a LOT of accurate shots on a target that isn't trying to evade. In that sense, your description of a shooter placing his shots so as to better override a Jedi's defenses fits better with my house rule than with the RAW.
| Quote: | | Your own rule supports the conclusion that Jedi can fail. You didn't propose eliminating the difficulty of parrying a blaster bolt; you proposed a static difficulty number. Presumably, this means that a Jedi who rolls below your static difficulty fails to parry. So up to the point of your last post, nobody was arguing about whether a Jedi could fail to parry; the question was what the threshold of failure should be. |
I haven't settled on a final Difficulty yet, but my thinking is that it should be so low that, short of a barrage or massed attack, a Jedi with Lightsaber Combat up should find it so disgustingly easy to parry blaster bolts that he can literally do it with his eyes closed, and that the only way he could possibly fail is a cascade failure on Wild Dice, with the potential of saving with a CP
| Quote: | | If you now can't accept the notion that "someone that can literally sense the future" can fail, then you need to reevaluate the question originally posed in this thread. |
My point is that failure on the part of someone who can literally see the future needs to be properly structured, in the form of indirect, convoluted, and/or multi-layered attacks, or by forcing the Jedi to deal with too many threats on too many fronts simultaneously. Unless you can figure out a way for a non-FS character to literally hide their actions from the flow of time itself, simply "shooting better" just isn't good enough. Because once a blaster bolt leaves the barrel of a blaster, it is just a blaster bolt, no matter how expertly aimed it is.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I haven't settled on a final Difficulty yet, but my thinking is that it should be so low that, short of a barrage or massed attack, a Jedi with Lightsaber Combat up should find it so disgustingly easy to parry blaster bolts that he can literally do it with his eyes closed, and that the only way he could possibly fail is a cascade failure on Wild Dice, with the potential of saving with a CP |
Jango needed only four for a Jedi Master. What the lowest total (LS+sense) for a JM you have ever seen in any on WEG books?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Jango needed only four for a Jedi Master. What the lowest total (LS+sense) for a JM you have ever seen in any on WEG books? |
Was Coleman Trebor a Jedi Master? Based on his poor performance, that was probably a mistake on someone's part, which is not unheard of in the EU. And I don't see how one scene overrides all the others that show how hard it is to take out a Jedi.
My thoughts? Two possibilities: either the EU got its story wrong, and Coleman Trebor was a low-level knight who got brought along because Mace Windu was effectively grabbing anyone with a pulse and a lightsaber for his rescue force, or Trebor was a Form VI practitioner whose regular duties didn't involve a lot of combat. In either case, his skill level was low enough that he screwed up his combined Lightsaber & LSC roll, stacked with MAPs because he had just jumped into the VIP box to engage Count Dooku.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, he was JM.
Found him in GG15:
Lightsaber 8D+1
Sense: 7D+1
vs
Jango: Blaster 10D
OK, let's say Jango used a FP, Coleman did not (plus he had few MAPs and maybe "1" on Wild). Done.
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Last edited by Darklighter79 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
This reminds me of the time where you suggested throwing a bag filled with explosives at a Jedi, presuming that the Jedi would swing at it with his lightsaber and cause the explosives to detonate. Why exactly is it that you think the additional threat wouldn't be detected? As though a bomb going off in someone's face wouldn't constitute a danger? |
Maybe, because in most of the first 8 years of my intro into SW gaming, that's often how the GM played dark jedi. Throw/shoot something at them, they'd use the LS to block it. So i figured "hey i can maybe use that against them" and went with a pouch of gunpowder or a flask of flamible liquid..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe, because in most of the first 8 years of my intro into SW gaming, that's often how the GM played dark jedi. Throw/shoot something at them, they'd use the LS to block it. So i figured "hey i can maybe use that against them" and went with a pouch of gunpowder or a flask of flammable liquid.. |
My first impression is that your GM probably shouldn't have allowed it. The films specifically address the Force with regard to how things appear; "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." Something that simply appears innocuous to the eye should not give it the ability to conceal the potential threat from the Force.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:51 am Post subject: |
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i kinda figured you would say something like that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | i kinda figured you would say something like that. |
Hey, at least I'm consistent.
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Maybe, because in most of the first 8 years of my intro into SW gaming, that's often how the GM played dark jedi. Throw/shoot something at them, they'd use the LS to block it. So i figured "hey i can maybe use that against them" and went with a pouch of gunpowder or a flask of flammable liquid.. |
My first impression is that your GM probably shouldn't have allowed it. The films specifically address the Force with regard to how things appear; "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." Something that simply appears innocuous to the eye should not give it the ability to conceal the potential threat from the Force. |
So you suggest that LS works as some kind of danger sense? Allowing Jedi to sense what can and can't be blocked?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | | So you suggest that LS works as some kind of danger sense? Allowing Jedi to sense what can and can't be blocked? |
I suggest that a power capable of telling a Jedi exactly when and where to move their lightsaber to intercept bolts of high energy plasma (effectively, informing the user of exactly where the bolt will be before it gets there) will also let the Jedi know that it’s a good idea to let that harmless looking bag or bottle just fly by. We’ve already established that the occasional dodge fits into lightsaber combat, so why would a Jedi using lightsaber combat have to parry it instead of just sidestepping it?
On a larger issue, the Force is subdivided into powers for ease-of-gaming purposes, not because the Force itself is equally subdivided. If anything, a character with Lightsaber Combat up should be even more cognizant of danger than he would on a GM-declared Danger Sense roll.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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