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New Movement Skill
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: New Movement Skill Reply with quote

Per the RAW, the Running skill is used for all Character movement, at all speed and terrain difficulty levels. The thing is, if the character is moving at Cautious or Normal Speed across Difficult, Very Difficult or Heroic Terrain, they aren't actually running. So why require the Running skill?

What I'm thinking is a separate skill called Agility, distinct from Running, that covers a character's ability to keep their balance while moving through rough terrain, as well as to counter attacks that might knock them to the ground (such as the Martial Arts Knockdown attack).

Running would be restricted to moving at High or All-Out Speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate Terrain.

However, trying to move at High or All-Out Speed in Difficult, Very Difficult or Heroic Terrain would require rolling both skills (Running and Agility) with the attendant MAP.

Which would then open the door to a Parkour / Freerunning Advanced Skill that covers high speed movement through difficult terrain...

Not sure I'm explaining it clearly. Thoughts?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to dismiss what you posted out of hand, but honestly my first reaction to this is that I don't see a real need to add this (minor) changes additional complexity to the movement rules.

I wouldn't let skill names become too much of a factor in the rules because they can be renamed to something more appropriate. The Running skill description includes performing feats of balance, but it just doesn't indicate that overtly in the skill name (Keeping balance while moving through a terrain too slowly to technically be considered "running"). To better describe everything that Running does, I renamed the skill Balance/Running. And even though you didn't go there, based on someone else here pointing out that every single other movement skill uses that same skill for dodging (piloting vehicles, beast riding, and even swimming), I thought it should be the same here so I combined Dodge with Running giving me Balance/Dodge/Running. Maybe Agility is a better name for the combo, but I don't see the need to split up Running. Sure, with prerequisite rules you could make an advanced skill to cover everything Parkour does, but you could just also have the character make applicable additional roles for the obstacles and feats along the way, with those things appropriately mapping the movement rolls.

But that's just my initial personal reaction. You mods certainly seem like they could work just fine.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I wouldn't let skill names become too much of a factor in the rules because they can be renamed to something more appropriate.

In fact, Wikipedia defines Agility as
Quote:
the ability to change the body's position efficiently, and requires the integration of isolated movement skills using a combination of balance, coordination, speed, reflexes, strength, and endurance.

With that in mind, it would actually be easier to just rename "Running" as "Agility", since it is a broader definition that includes running. I think you hit the nail on the head as to what was bothering me. And you're right about folding Dodge into it, as well, which is something I hadn't considered.

Of course, that also brings up the question as to how specializing in a particular subset of Running/Agility would affect the Movement chart. Would specializing in Sprinting only provide a bonus when moving at All-Out? Long-Distance Running only if moving at Fast? And how would improving those skills affect the result? Would a long distance specialist get a bonus to Stamina when rolling under the Long Distance Movement rules?

Specializing in one particular facet of running certainly is representative of real life, but is there any real advantage to a PC in doing the same?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've known some who change it from running to balance or agility, but combining it with dodge? Nope.. IMO that makes bumping up someone's combat defense quicker than normal, especially if they only have now the one skill to dump cp into.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I've known some who change it from running to balance or agility, but combining it with dodge? Nope.. IMO that makes bumping up someone's combat defense quicker than normal, especially if they only have now the one skill to dump cp into.

And we can't have things easier or simpler for PCs, after all; that's just not cricket.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its one of the main reasons i have always been against combining skills, such as melee+melee parry, all the ranged weapon attacks..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Its one of the main reasons i have always been against combining skills, such as melee+melee parry, all the ranged weapon attacks..

But wouldn't combining Dodge and Running have the same effect? Everything else splits attack and defense into separate skills while combining piloting ability and defense into the same skill. It's not as thought I'm trying to combine, say, Blaster and Dodge into a single skill...

Plus, it's not as though this would only apply to PCs; NPCs would also get the advantage of improving one skill instead of two.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Plus, it's not as though this would only apply to PCs; NPCs would also get the advantage of improving one skill instead of two.


I think that's of more marginal benefit, since NPCs don't have to adhere to CP costs or training times.

Overall, what would you say is the difference between your "Agility" skill, and what is already covered by "Acrobatics"? It already explicitly adds to running and climbing/jumping checks, so someone running through difficult terrain might make a Moderate Acrobatics check to vault over an obstacle, adding to their Running roll to keep their footing and move quickly through the area.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I think that's of more marginal benefit, since NPCs don't have to adhere to CP costs or training times.

I've gone enough rounds with garhkal on similar issues that I strongly suspect his main objection is less about whether such a change would be realistic than that it might provide an advantage to PCs, thus throwing off the balance of the game. I'm just pointing out that all characters (PC or NPC) would derive benefit from this rule.

Quote:
Overall, what would you say is the difference between your "Agility" skill, and what is already covered by "Acrobatics"? It already explicitly adds to running and climbing/jumping checks, so someone running through difficult terrain might make a Moderate Acrobatics check to vault over an obstacle, adding to their Running roll to keep their footing and move quickly through the area.

AFAIK, Acrobatics is strictly a species skill for the Triani. While it is a skill under D6 Space, it isn't strictly speaking included in the RAW for characters in general. Even then, it's not really described in detail; more of a general description than any particular rules.

For the Triani version, the only specific rule described is using Acrobatics to reduce falling damage. So I'm not sure where you are getting this description of Acrobatics.

From the sound of it, you are describing more of a homebrew Advanced skill that stacks with Running and Climbing/Jumping.

What I'm describing is, essentially, broadening the title of Running to include what is already there, specifically
    the character's ability to run and keep his balance, especially in dangerous terrain.
As I mentioned in the first post, the word "Running" does not, strictly speaking, apply when the character isn't running (i.e. walking slowly or briskly, at either Cautious or Cruising speed).
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a common skill in my copy of REUP... I'm at work, so I can't check R&E, but I thought it was there, too.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
It's a common skill in my copy of REUP... I'm at work, so I can't check R&E, but I thought it was there, too.

Okay, that clears it up. REUP is, strictly speaking, homebrew, regardless of the quality of the product.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Its one of the main reasons i have always been against combining skills, such as melee+melee parry, all the ranged weapon attacks..

But wouldn't combining Dodge and Running have the same effect? Everything else splits attack and defense into separate skills while combining piloting ability and defense into the same skill. It's not as thought I'm trying to combine, say, Blaster and Dodge into a single skill...

Plus, it's not as though this would only apply to PCs; NPCs would also get the advantage of improving one skill instead of two.


Which is why i am against combining dodge and running.. I was ok with CHANGING the running skills name though.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Which is why i am against combining dodge and running.. I was ok with CHANGING the running skills name though.

What I meant was that, even with combining Dodge and Running, it is still Attack and Defense split into two skills. Just like Melee Combat vs. Melee Parry, Brawling Combat vs. Brawling Parry, Starship Gunnery vs. Starfighter Piloting, etc, Agility would be the Defense vs. the Attack of Blaster, Firearms, Thrown Weapons, etc.

Whill's point was that combining Dodge and Running into Agility would make a character's Movement on foot equal to all other forms of locomotion in the SWU (Beast Riding, Repulsorlift Operation, Space Transports) in that you would use the same skill to avoid attacks as you would to operate the vehicle in rough terrain. I like it because it becomes one rule for everyone.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make a good point, but I'm not sure how I feel about combining Running and Dodge. I see the both sides of the argument on this one.

And I'm one of the weirdos that combined brawl/parry and melee/parry....
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
You make a good point, but I'm not sure how I feel about combining Running and Dodge. I see the both sides of the argument on this one.

And I'm one of the weirdos that combined brawl/parry and melee/parry....

I was, too. Now, I'm more inclined to keep them separate and make them prerequisites for a Martial Arts advanced skill...
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