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Rogue One (spoilers thread)
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't want to make this into a discussion about why everyone is wrong to like the movie. I really was just curious about what other people see in it.

But the main reason I think the movie didn't work for me was the cinematography. The way the camera is placed and moves, the way sets are lit constantly remind me of other movies. But they remind me of action movies from the past 10 years, not of Star Wars movies. The battle on the beach reminded me of the fight in the desert from a Transformers movie, while I wanted to be reminded of Hoth. At the end when they go to get the data from the rack, the location had me think of a Mission Impossible movie, not of the Death Star. And that was an experience I had throughout the entire movie, which really didn't sit well with me.

Many things that I often see praised and that were brought up here again had me cringe and think "fan service".
Why Rogue One? Rogue Squadron is an extremely distingished X-Wing squadron from the EU with a long history. Now we are told they are named after a commando team that made up the name minutes before it was wiped out?
People love Vader lightsaber-slaughtering Rebel soldiers. I thought it was the worst part of the entire movie. Vader plays almost no role in the movie from what I remember, which makes him having the final big moment of the whole movie, after the heroes' story is already over, feel tacked on and out of place. And I've always seen him as a terrifying commander of Imperial Forces, whi is feared for what he makes his stormtroopers do. Not for being a one man army. That felt like something out of a Marvel superhero movie.
And to me, being told that the Rebels did not find one obscure little flaw in the Death Star design that had a miniscule chance of causing serious damage, but it was the only shot they had for the survival of the Rebellion, but instead they just flipped a switch that someone installed for them, cheapens the whole story of ANH and makes the battle for the Death Star seem hollow and meaningless to me.

Which is why I choose to regard it as part of an alternative universe, separate from the original Star Wars.
There's more, but this discussion is not about what's wrong with the movie but what makes people like it. And even in my opinion, the only other movie that I would consider better than Rogue One is Revenge of the Sith, making it tied for fifth place with The Phantom Menace.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:

And to me, being told that the Rebels did not find one obscure little flaw in the Death Star design that had a miniscule chance of causing serious damage, but it was the only shot they had for the survival of the Rebellion, but instead they just flipped a switch that someone installed for them, cheapens the whole story of ANH


I think I agree with you on this one. The heroism of getting the top-secret blueprints of a new super-weapon is enough. It's huge and its fantastic.

Having Rebel technicians combing over those plans desperately searching for a weakness of any kind that can be exploited is real ticking-clock tension stuff.

They really didn't need to have someone build-in an achilles heel. Unnecessary and...does take away from the rebels, saying, basically, they couldn't have won...even WITH the plans, even with Luke on the attack run, except that a guy on the inside let them.

In ANH they even say "We have analyzed the Death Star plans and found one weakness." (Paraphrased)

They didn't say "We found the secret vulnerability we were promised by Erso. It does exist."
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, this has nothing to do with the previous discussion, but just so weird I have to mention it.

I was just browsing Wookiepedia for interesting planets in the neighborhood of Tatooine, Ryloth, and Rodia and looked at the page for Kothlis. The images immediately had me read up on the Battle of Kothlis.

So in the videogame Rogue Squadron II, there's a pair of levels in which a Rebel Corvette has the plans for the Second Death Star, but it gets captured by a Star Destroyer over Kothlis. The Rebel fleet that was supposed to pick up the plans and take them to a Rebel base arrived and attacked the Star Destroyer to recover the plans, but the damage caused it to fall down to the planet.
It crashes in a lagoon surrounded by tropical islands with big beaches, and a team of Rebel commandos is send down to get the data from the Star Destroyer. Meanwhile X-Wings (and others) provide air support by taking out AT-ATs that managed to get out of the wreckage. The commandos manage to get the plans and make their escape just in time before the failing reactor of the Star Destroyer explodes and destroys the whole islands.

There's even pictures of the ground fighting.

Coincidence?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In my mind, immediately after their scene a rebel comes up to them and hurriedly urges them onto a nearby shuttle that takes them up to the the Profundity.

That's possible, I guess; I just have a hard time picturing a pair of droids being worth the effort of being whisked onto a shuttle just to have them onboard for a major battle. It really made the cameo feel forced, when they could've just as easily given them a scene right at the end onboard the Tantive IV. And Threepio's line really doesn't make sense; who clears a combat scramble with a protocol droid?
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, they could have had R2D2 and C3PO aboard a ship and have Captain Antilles say to them. "Come on, we have to get ready to go to Scarif." and then have C3PO have his comment about "Scarif?". Then, instead of saying "no one ever tells me anything" he could say "Why in the world would we go to Scarif? That is right in the middle of Imperial territory?"

That would jive a lot closer with C3PO telling Luke that their last master was a Captain Antilles when he was getting the oil bath in Star Wars.

If anything it further cements the idea that the Star Wars movies are all (as they say) "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away". These are lore and legends, not factual events. Some have been wildly exaggerated, while other aspects are much closer to the actual occurrence of what went on. So the Keeper of the Whills that tells this story is mis-remembering where the droids were located. They were actually already aboard a ship, not on the planet during the fighter scramble. They belonged to Captain Antilles and were thus with him when he was taken to the Profundity to take ownership of the Tantive IV. Mostly true, but not entirely accurate to what actually happened.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also say that the Tantive IV's consular ship identity was sufficiently worth maintaining that having it blatantly in league with the Alliance in a manner that couldn't be hidden from the Empire was a mistake. In my own head canon, I picture the Tantive IV faking engine trouble in the outer reaches of the system, just like in the radio dramas. The Darth Vader scene works just as well if he's trying to storm the Profundity's bridge before it can relay the signal from Scariff out to the Tantive, and doing it that way offers the same veneer of plausibility for the ship's diplomatic status. Leia and Antilles' assertion of "consular ship on a diplomatic mission" was reduced to utter BS with Vader literally looking at the plans being physically taken aboard the ship as it escapes.

Sure, the scene makes for great viewing, but it's silly in retrospect.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:

Many things that I often see praised and that were brought up here again had me cringe and think "fan service".
Why Rogue One? Rogue Squadron is an extremely distingished X-Wing squadron from the EU with a long history. Now we are told they are named after a commando team that made up the name minutes before it was wiped out?


Rogue One was ENTIRELY fan service!

It was to "plug" a perceived hole envisioned by some of the fans.
It included Vader's Citadel.
It showed the "birth" of the Rogue callsign. (And no, Rogue mentioned before the EU, as it was the callsign of Snowspeeders at the Battle of Hoth...mentioned in the movie The Empire Strikes Back. The Squadron from the EU was named after the heroism displayed by the squadron of snowspeeders in the retreat from Hoth, NOT from the commando team that made up the name.)
It included Dr. Evazan and Pondo Baba from the original Star Wars.
It had the call-back to "I've got a bad feeling about this".
It had the inclusion of Gold Leader and Red Leader, the same pilots (due to old footage reused) from the original Star Wars.
They purposefully showed the death of Red 5, so Luke could take the callsign in the original Star Wars.
They had oodles and oodles of TIE fighters disgorge from the gate station above Scarif, displaying the "might" of the Empire.
They had the Death Star being finished and being used not once, but TWICE! (but never at full scale as the death of Alderaan still needed to be the "statement")
They had a Star Destroyer hanging over a city so you could see the "true scale" of the ship (Granted, this was one aspect that bugged me, as I'm of the belief that Imperial Star Destroyers cannot enter lower atmosphere, only Victory Star Destroyers can do that....per West End Games)
They had a snappy banter droid that people loved.
They offered a potential "birth" of the Rogue callsign.
They found an excellent replacement for Mon Mothma, one that didn't need computer "surgery" to make her look like Mon Mothma.
They found a very good actor for Grand Moff Tarkin, who learned the mannerism, speech patten, and ways to hold his mouth so as to mimic Peter Cushing to a tee. Then they went and messed him up with the computer generated overlay. If they would have kept him viewed from a distance, it would have been so much better.
They name-dropped Captain Antilles aboard the Tantive.
They included a "poor-man's AT-AT" with the AT-ACT so you could have those impressive plodding things and demonstrate how ineffective ground fire is against even the light-armored versions.
They even included a brief glimpse of a AT-ST in the relief force that comes in after the tank is destroyed.

They did so many things in this movie that was all about the fans that this movie was pretty much ENTIRELY fan service. That honestly doesn't make it bad, though. Granted, we all have our preferences, and yours doesn't includ this one. That's fine.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
It had the call-back to "I've got a bad feeling about this".

That's not fan service. That's mandatory. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
I really don't want to make this into a discussion about why everyone is wrong to like the movie. I really was just curious about what other people see in it...

You're getting both because you did more than just ask for positives. You posted your own negatives too, and that generates discussion of them (which includes agreement).

Yora wrote:
There's even pictures of the ground fighting.

Coincidence?

More than likely they were inspiration. The EU is a smorgasbord for Disney. I think it can be neat when they creatively insert non-film canon into films. It seems you do not agree. Oh well. Some of us fans are not bothered by inspiration.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Yora wrote:
And to me, being told that the Rebels did not find one obscure little flaw in the Death Star design that had a miniscule chance of causing serious damage, but it was the only shot they had for the survival of the Rebellion, but instead they just flipped a switch that someone installed for them, cheapens the whole story of ANH

I think I agree with you on this one. The heroism of getting the top-secret blueprints of a new super-weapon is enough. It's huge and its fantastic.

Having Rebel technicians combing over those plans desperately searching for a weakness of any kind that can be exploited is real ticking-clock tension stuff.

They really didn't need to have someone build-in an achilles heel. Unnecessary and...does take away from the rebels, saying, basically, they couldn't have won...even WITH the plans, even with Luke on the attack run, except that a guy on the inside let them.

Being the ultimate ANH fan and recognizing that ANH has the single greatest climactic sequence in the history of cinema, I'll concede that this is the single most valid criticism of RO. For the sake of the plot and drama of RO, the flaw that the Rebels took advantage of in the Battle of Yavin had been intentionally placed there. It does seem to make Luke's shot less miraculous... but only if you let it...

Dredwulf60 wrote:
In ANH they even say "We have analyzed the Death Star plans and found one weakness." (Paraphrased)

They didn't say "We found the secret vulnerability we were promised by Erso. It does exist."

This is silly thing to say. Of course they didn't say that, because Erso and RO did not exist in 1976. RO was not even a twinkle in the original opening crawl's eye yet. So far, Disney has not continued Lucas' practice of altering the classic films, so until it does, ANH will never have this line. But if the simple addition of this line would eliminate the issue for you, then the good news is there are other possibilities than don't involve altering ANH (further).

As I stated previously there are incongruities between not only RO and ANH, but the entire rest of the franchise and ANH. Most fans seems to have no trouble accepting TESB and RotJ's contradictions with ANH (that "from a certain point of view" do not completely address), such as how ANH established that Vader had turned to evil while still a pupil of Kenobi's, but after Vader and Luke's father became the same character in TESB, RotJ established that Luke's father had become a full-fledged Jedi Knight before turning to evil (and thus not still a student). Why does no one have a problem with that? Maybe because we were kids at the time and just accepted that as-is. Adult fans have to sometimes put in a little work to address the discontinuities we notice at the franchise goes larger, but if you don't like the new product anyway then you have little motivation to do so. I find that the 'time-travel' criticisms (old movies didn't account for new movies) are often used by bashers who just don't like the new film anyway so they just end up antagonizing fans who do. Not saying you are trying to do that but in my experience those criticisms tend to be disingenuous.

There are solutions to this issue for those who really want them. Perhaps the plan files became partially corrupted in Artoo and the Rebel analysis of them was working with an imperfect copy. They knew the flaw was there, but still had to do work to find it. Maybe there was a "phase variance" that the proton torpedoes could have been altered to that would have made the shot easier, but that information was lost so it became "one in a million." Maybe there was a completely different port to shoot the torpedoes into that would have made it easier, but that info was lost so they came up with the best possible plan they could, that was more difficult than Erso envisioned. Maybe some Rebel leaders were still skeptical that Erso was really on their side like a lot of them were in RO, so they didn't completely trust the info so weren't that hopeful about the odds. Should I keep going? Something going wrong with the plans that had a built-in flaw would be yet another complication that arose that didn't make it impossible to take advantage of the flaw, but just made it more difficult, and thus the drama of Luke's shot is preserved, with even more drama has been added in the mind of a fan that wants to love both films. The purpose of the flaw in RO is to give the Rebels hope that they even have a chance of succeeding, because if they didn't have hope then they wouldn't have even tried.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
Yeah, they could have had R2D2 and C3PO aboard a ship and have Captain Antilles say to them. "Come on, we have to get ready to go to Scarif." and then have C3PO have his comment about "Scarif?". Then, instead of saying "no one ever tells me anything" he could say "Why in the world would we go to Scarif? That is right in the middle of Imperial territory?"

As I stated in a prior post, they intentionally kept the Tantive IV, Captain Antilles, and Leia offscreen until the dramatic surprise reveal of the ship being inside the Profundity at the end. We weren't even suppose to know the Tantive IV was even in the battle. The thing about prequels is, going into it we already know how they end. We knew from the opening of ANH that Leia has the plans on the Tantive IV, but when first watching RO, we had no idea how they got there. It was a dramatic choice to first reveal the Tantive IV at the end of the film the way they did. A choice that served RO to make RO better while still getting the narrative to the beginning of ANH.

Grimace wrote:
That would jive a lot closer with C3PO telling Luke that their last master was a Captain Antilles when he was getting the oil bath in Star Wars.

The previous prequel already addressed that quite nicely. We see Bail Organa telling Captain Antilles that the droids are being put into his care. And since they still are at the beginning of ANH, we have no reason to think that they aren't when they are seen in the Yavin base in RO. Bail Organa and Captain Antilles are Rebels.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
In my mind, immediately after their scene a rebel comes up to them and hurriedly urges them onto a nearby shuttle that takes them up to the the Profundity.

That's possible, I guess; I just have a hard time picturing a pair of droids being worth the effort of being whisked onto a shuttle just to have them onboard for a major battle. It really made the cameo feel forced, when they could've just as easily given them a scene right at the end onboard the Tantive IV.

They didn't put the droids at the end because the emotion of the scene would have been wrong.

In ANH the plot follows a very clear path of Leia to Artoo to Artoo+Threepio to Jawas to Luke to Obi-Wan to Han+Chewie to Leia. At the end of RO, the plans go from Rebel soldiers to Captain Antilles to Leia to Hope and Hyperspace, The End. Artoo and Threepio are completely unnecessary to the Death Star narrative until ANH. The droids' appearance in RO is foreshadowing, and maintaining the tradition of the droids being in every Star Wars movie (which was kept until Solo). So it was a fun cameo, and they went for a little humor by having Threepio say typical Threepio objections to anticipated danger.

At the end of the film, after the drama of all the sacrifices made to get the plans to Leia, the goofy droids would have been a severe opposition to the somber mood of the moment.

CRMcNeill wrote:
And Threepio's line really doesn't make sense; who clears a combat scramble with a protocol droid?

A combat scramble that was communicated verbally and would have been repeated multiple times as it spread, which Threepio easily could have overheard in the hanger.

Grimace wrote:
If anything it further cements the idea that the Star Wars movies are all (as they say) "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away". These are lore and legends, not factual events. Some have been wildly exaggerated, while other aspects are much closer to the actual occurrence of what went on. So the Keeper of the Whills that tells this story is mis-remembering where the droids were located. They were actually already aboard a ship, not on the planet during the fighter scramble. They belonged to Captain Antilles and were thus with him when he was taken to the Profundity to take ownership of the Tantive IV. Mostly true, but not entirely accurate to what actually happened.

Whatever works for you. I like to work out discrepancies but I still keep this sentiment in mind before getting too worked up over the nitty gritty. The events of the films in my person canon don't have to absolutely happen exactly as they appear on the screen. It was a long time ago...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
Yora wrote:
Many things that I often see praised and that were brought up here again had me cringe and think "fan service".

It was to "plug" a perceived hole envisioned by some of the fans.
It included Vader's Citadel.
It showed the "birth" of the Rogue callsign. (And no, Rogue mentioned before the EU, as it was the callsign of Snowspeeders at the Battle of Hoth...mentioned in the movie The Empire Strikes Back. The Squadron from the EU was named after the heroism displayed by the squadron of snowspeeders in the retreat from Hoth, NOT from the commando team that made up the name.)
It included Dr. Evazan and Pondo Baba from the original Star Wars.
It had the call-back to "I've got a bad feeling about this".
It had the inclusion of Gold Leader and Red Leader, the same pilots (due to old footage reused) from the original Star Wars.
They purposefully showed the death of Red 5, so Luke could take the callsign in the original Star Wars.
They had oodles and oodles of TIE fighters disgorge from the gate station above Scarif, displaying the "might" of the Empire.
They had the Death Star being finished and being used not once, but TWICE! (but never at full scale as the death of Alderaan still needed to be the "statement")
They had a Star Destroyer hanging over a city so you could see the "true scale" of the ship (Granted, this was one aspect that bugged me, as I'm of the belief that Imperial Star Destroyers cannot enter lower atmosphere, only Victory Star Destroyers can do that....per West End Games)
They had a snappy banter droid that people loved.
They offered a potential "birth" of the Rogue callsign.
They found an excellent replacement for Mon Mothma, one that didn't need computer "surgery" to make her look like Mon Mothma.
They found a very good actor for Grand Moff Tarkin, who learned the mannerism, speech patten, and ways to hold his mouth so as to mimic Peter Cushing to a tee. Then they went and messed him up with the computer generated overlay. If they would have kept him viewed from a distance, it would have been so much better.
They name-dropped Captain Antilles aboard the Tantive.
They included a "poor-man's AT-AT" with the AT-ACT so you could have those impressive plodding things and demonstrate how ineffective ground fire is against even the light-armored versions.
They even included a brief glimpse of a AT-ST in the relief force that comes in after the tank is destroyed.

...That honestly doesn't make it bad, though. Granted, we all have our preferences, and yours doesn't includ this one. That's fine.

Excellent list. Thanks.

Yora wrote:
That's not fan service. That's mandatory. Very Happy

I quite agree with Grimace. Fan service is not not necessarily a bad thing. I am a fan and I like being served. The only real problem with fan service is when that's all there is and there is nothing else substantial to enjoy. You speak as if the fact that RO includes fan service is an objective measure of why the film is bad. I acknowledge that you do not like the bulk of the film that isn't fan service, so the fan service there is only further annoying to you and adds to the list of laundry list of thing you don't like about the film. But please understand that many other fans do not think the fan service is bad if we get into the rest of the film. Fan service is the icing on the cake, but the cake is great too IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
DirkCorman wrote:
And I'm pleased that there wasn't a forced romance between Jyn and Cassian.

Wouldn't have been right to me..

I quite agree. An actual romance would have been completely out of place in this movie. But they did share a moment of tenderness in the final moments of their lives. I feel it was completely appropriate.


Is it just me, or does this movie have the man to be the pretty one and the woman to be the tough one?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

This is silly thing to say. Of course they didn't say that, because Erso and RO did not exist in 1976.


Holy moley...are you serious??

No, I don't think it's a silly thing to say. But you can judge silliness for yourself, so if you think that, then, well go ahead.

I'm not saying I want them to retcon ANH with a different line of dialogue. That would make it worse not better.

I'm saying that it is just one more reason they (the people who made RO) shouldn't have given the Death Star a purposely built flaw.

Yes there are other contradictions in Star Wars.

But I am of the opinion that less contradictions is probably better. If there are 8 contradictions...and they could have cut it down to just 7 contradictions, then that would have suited me much better. Unless the contradiction made for a better story. Then, what the heck.

But since time machines don't actually exist...there's nothing that can be done about it now I guess.

No I'm not bashing it. I like RO. But I am a fan who will generally accept mistakes and things that could have been better instead of trying to twist my head into mental gymnastics and conjecture to make it fit and make sense.

Canon means next to NOTHING to my personal game, so it isn't a big deal to me.

My only beef is someone who didn't seem to understand my intent, deciding it was a 'silly' thing to say. That's pretty belittling and insulting to me and I'm a little fired up.

Apologies in advance for anything I may have responded with that come across as condescending.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dred, I did completely acknowledged your valid criticism of RO, and I explained my experience with people that make the time travel criticisms. I said I didn't think you were doing what people who I typically hear that from are doing. That was meant to convey that it sounds silly, even if you didn't mean it in the same way I'm used to hearing it. But I could have ignored the statement. I'm sorry I have fired you up.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
But since time machines don't actually exist...there's nothing that can be done about it now I guess.

But that was my whole point of saying what I said. There is something that can be done, and without time travel. You can find solutions that do not involve changing either movie. Franchise supplied explanations or fan ones. Whatever works.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
I am a fan who will generally accept mistakes and things that could have been better instead of trying to twist my head into mental gymnastics and conjecture to make it fit and make sense.

I would refer to the process as twisting my head or mental gymnastics. Rogue One is easy. The film achieved a very good balance at being a good film in its own right, maintaining continuity with ANH, and maintaining continuity with the rest of the films. There are imperfections. Yes, these things should be minimized when making the films, the less the better, but we can't do that to films and it is now after the fact. All we can do as viewers is find ways to reconcile everything. I personally don't find it difficult for this film.

The imperfections don't bother you, and you enjoy the film anyway. Great!

Yora said he was curious why people love RO. As one of those fans, I gave a heartfelt reply loaded with positives that tried to answer that. Then there seemed to be a shift from curiosity and wanting to hear positives to disbelief that anyone else could possibly like it with his criticisms. Others discussed the criticisms including you. I tried to answer his disbelief by saying how it is still possible for others to love the movie with those issues. I wasn't expecting to change anyone's mind, only to express how it is possible that others do not have the same issues he does.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 14202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
They didn't put the droids at the end because the emotion of the scene would have been wrong.

That's a fair point, but then why did they need to have the droids there solely for comedic effect (especially for a line that wasn't all that funny)? If they're going to give Threepio a throwaway line, have him responding to an order from Captain Antilles while en route to the bridge.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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