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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14051
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Its more that for DECADES we have had the stats for the SSD even in the essential guide to vehicles and vessels as being 8K.. And as of 12 years ago someone decided to change it cause of what HE thought it should be... |
In other words, a mistake was made decades ago regarding the true size of the Executor, that mistake persisted for decades until 12 years ago, when one person out of many who recognized the error from the beginning managed to yell loudly enough to provide evidence that the mistake was wrong. In other words, a retcon was made to a glaring error in the SWU and you seem to have trouble accepting it for some reason.
Is that about right? |
Maybe I don't believe that for 12+ years we had a mistake.. And the NEW figure is that is the mistake.. Did you think of that?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16199
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Based on what evidence? The 19km length is at least based on film evidence, where the Executor is clearly (and measurably) shown to be much larger than 5x longer than an ISD. I've played this game with you before, so I'm reasonably certain your reasoning is based loosely on "WEG said it, therefore it MUST be true." But if you have something else, I'm all ears.
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Ninja-Bear
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Sep 2016
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| I have a question. I understand that they based the new measurements off of a shadow. However how do they comoenstate for any varience in the shadow? I mean depending on angle of light, your shadow can be long or short. Did they take into account the angle.of shadow too? Im wondering and am.curious. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16199
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ninja-Bear wrote: | | I have a question. I understand that they based the new measurements off of a shadow. However how do they comoenstate for any varience in the shadow? I mean depending on angle of light, your shadow can be long or short. Did they take into account the angle.of shadow too? Im wondering and am.curious. |
Go to the link I provided above. It lays out their reasoning for why. Bear in mind that the SWTC never estimated an exact length; they just said that the visual in ROTJ supports that of a ship at least 11x longer than an ISD.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Maybe someone has already found this and linked to it, but I seem to remember some math whizzes calculating the Executor's length by taking apart the shot where it rams into Death Star II. They took a known quantity—in this case, the diameter of Death Star II (120 km)—and measured the angle of the Death Star's hull vs. the on-screen measurement of the Executor. I don't remember what they came up with but I think it was the 19 km measurement (don't quote me on that).
I do remember it being listed as 8 km for years, which according to you all originated with WEG's stats for it.
Sovereign and Eclipse-class craft may have been intended to be bigger than an Executor-class craft, but their stats are Legends material now and will likely not be revised by anyone. We simply have three classes of Star Dreadnoughts that are all about the same size (not a bad thing IMO.)
I am also of the opinion that these craft were SO massive (one Executor-class craft could have singlehandedly taken out the Rebel fleet from both RotJ and R1, though its failure to do so at Endor was blamed on the death of Palpatine—this is explained in the Thrawn trilogy) and took SO long to construct and properly crew, that I just don't see there being more than a handful of them ever made. Also, Sovereign and Eclipse-class craft are singletons in my SWU and will probably never be seen or even heard of by any of my PC's. I also seem to recall that both were destroyed during that stupid Dark Empire comics series where Palpatine was cloned. (Why? Why why why?)
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Ninja-Bear
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Sep 2016
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Just read the ljnk and He doesn't really prove his.case. First of all, Lucas didn't use current maritime noneclature. Well was Lucas trying to be that specific? I'll hazard a guess -no. I may name a new class.of ships in Star Wars and my brother will correct me because he served in the Navy. That doesn't mean I'm wrong in my own play world. Im only wrong if I was using actual Maritime conventions.
Second the Conning Tower. To use it as a measurement implies that the Model was originally built to scale. In other words, the modelers accurately scale the Conning Tower to be specific.height.at a specific.scale. So that isn't as verifiable as the author wishes it is. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16199
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I posted two links. The other was to the SWTC main page. There is an entire section on the Executor, including a detailed analysis of the length, with movie stills as evidence.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14051
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Based on what evidence? The 19km length is at least based on film evidence, where the Executor is clearly (and measurably) shown to be much larger than 5x longer than an ISD. I've played this game with you before, so I'm reasonably certain your reasoning is based loosely on "WEG said it, therefore it MUST be true." But if you have something else, I'm all ears. |
IIRC wasn't it one of the film novelizations where someone was quoted as saying the Executor was 5 times as big as any other imperial star destroyer that initally led to WEG putting it at 8K?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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The actual quote is, "over five times larger," which is distinct from "exactly five times longer."
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:42 am Post subject: |
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But switching it from 'over five times long' to almost "over 12 times as long' which is what the 19k SSD then becomes is one hell of a massive stretch.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But switching it from 'over five times long' to almost "over 12 times as long' which is what the 19k SSD then becomes is one hell of a massive stretch. |
And? Does the change in length somehow affect gameplay? What PC or group of PCs is capable of taking this thing on, regardless of which length is used? The only reason the Executor, Eclipse and Sovereign even have stats is to hammer home the utter futility of doing anything but run when one of these monsters shows up.
WEG didn't even manage to be internally consistent on the length. They use the 5xISD length, but if you measure the scale drawing in the Imperial Sourcebook, it comes out to roughly 8.5xISD, or around 13,600 meters. The SWTC length at least has the advantage of being based off in-universe visual evidence, as opposed to the comedy of errors that resulted in the 8,000 meter length.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10313
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe I don't believe that for 12+ years we had a mistake.. And the NEW figure is that is the mistake.. Did you think of that? |
| garhkal wrote: | | IIRC wasn't it one of the film novelizations where someone was quoted as saying the Executor was 5 times as big as any other imperial star destroyer that initally led to WEG putting it at 8K? |
garhkal, do you own TESB and RotJ movies in any form? Have you watched them at all in the past 30 years?
Did you know that the novelizations were were based on rough drafts of the screenplay before the movies were filmed, and that movies can change further in post-production, especially special effects like spaceships? Maybe the WEG figure was a mistake in the first place, and the error just got repeated for years until finally challenged. Did you think of that?
Forget the books. Watch the movies! Then check this out...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought/Legends#Behind_the_scenes
| Quote: | Originally, during production of The Empire Strikes Back, the Executor was meant to be just another type of Star Destroyer, similar in design to the ones seen in Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope, only faster. At some point, the design was changed and enlarged, and the vessel became much bigger than its escorting Star Destroyers. G-canon movie visuals established a length of around 11 miles, a size that was maintained by the special-effects team for its two on-screen appearances. Early sources like the Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back script (1978), The Empire Strikes Back novelization (1980), and The Empire Strikes Back Official Poster Monthly (1980) described the Executor as larger and more powerful than the five ISDs accompanying it...
A Guide to the Star Wars Universe (1984) said it was approximately five times larger and more destructive than any Star Destroyer in the Imperial Fleet. Since multiple mile-long Star Destroyers are in Legends material (... and explicitly stated in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections), this is consistent with earlier sources and does not indicate the Imperial-class specifically, which would have created an inconsistency.
In 1989, the RPG-based Imperial Sourcebook stated that the class was exactly five times the length of the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, and this figure was perpetuated for about 15 years, in game and non-game sources. Often, the accompanying Executor illustrations did not match the model used in the films, with the command tower being too large compared to the rest of the vessel, the tail section being truncated, and the ship having fewer engines (usually stated as nine). The behind-the-scenes book From Star Wars to Indiana Jones: The Best of the Lucasfilm Archives (1995) showed the film props and stated that the Executor was conceived as eleven times the size of the original Star Destroyer, which itself was one mile (1.6 km) long...
In 2004, the Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy reference book changed the Executor's length to 19 kilometers. It was explained by continuity checker Leland Chee to be more consistent with the films. Later books and reference guides mostly followed this number. The official Databank has given various sizes over the years... and finally, 19 kilometers. |
Since 1989 I've been saying they were about 18 km. But 19 km works too.
It was clearly a case of that Chinese Whispers/Telephone game. It started with statements not even based on the relative length of the ship in the film. The Executor was larger and 'more powerful than the five ISDs' got repeated as "it was approximately five times larger and more destructive than any Star Destroyer in the Imperial Fleet" and that got repeated by WEG as 'exactly five times the length of the Imperial-class Star Destroyer'.
I like the idea of there being other kinds of ships bigger than Imps not seen in the films. I love the Guide, and to make the statement true when the Executor was new, we could have a ship class in between, about 3.6 km in length. And maybe after TESB, there could even be an 8 km ship like the WEG version of the Executor. These can also be rare like the Executor-class. And since "the accompanying Executor illustrations did not match the model used in the films," we may already have visuals to use as a basis for these new ships!
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Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
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Location: Any blackberry patch.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I vote we let garhkal have a 30-foot Executor if he likes. He has stuck to his guns now so long on this that I don't see his mind changing.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.
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Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | I vote we let garhkal have a 30-foot Executor if he likes. He has stuck to his guns now so long on this that I don't see his mind changing.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.
— Stuart Chase |
One has to wonder where you would fit the cockpit on a 30-ft Executor. Hell, there are escape pods that are bigger than that!
He didn't want to believe. He wanted to know.
— Ann Druyan, speaking of her late husband, astronomer Carl Sagan
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Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
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Location: Any blackberry patch.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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I do like the idea of a 5 km-ish craft meant to command 3-7 other capital ships, perhaps including one Nebulon-B, 3 ISD's, and an interdictor cruiser as the standard config.
And art exists for something similar that was never used? Even better!
Any ship designers paying attention?
It would have to be named badassly...I like Blackguard-class Star Dreadnoughts myself. Fits the role of the craft and mirrors the dark tone of Executor.
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