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Kytross
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 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Lets bring this back to D6. Rey is the only character in the movies who doesn't follow the rules of D6. Granted, we may get a backstory in 9 that brings her into compliance with D6, but from what we know now her Jedi training was way too fast. I've worked it out before and it only takes a few months of intense training, and a lot of CPs, to get to 4D in all three force skills. It takes time to create force powers without a teacher.
As an example, Anakin in TPM is a starting character, RAW. 3D Control, Concentration and Enhance Attribute. I don't remember him making any Sense or Alter rolls. That leaves him with 17 Attribute Dice and 5 skill dice to place. If we give him 4D in MEC & TEC, everything falls into place. Granted, he is probably the only starting character in the films. I could make an argument for Han as a starting character in Solo.
I can't think of anything else in the movies that violate RAW besides Rey. That's the thrust of the Mary Sue argument, the rules don't apply to her. |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| To be fair, they did establish on Jakku that Rey was very good at melee combat. No formal training maybe true. But she went to the school of hard knocks apparently. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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But being good in melee, does NOT via WEG rules, equate to being good with a lightsaber. And even if she was 'by default' good with a lightsaber, i can't see how she could have stood up to someone BETTER with a lightsaber, AND WHO has lightsaber combat up (Kylo or those red knights protecting Snoke).
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | Lets bring this back to D6. Rey is the only character in the movies who doesn't follow the rules of D6. Granted, we may get a backstory in 9 that brings her into compliance with D6, but from what we know now her Jedi training was way too fast. I've worked it out before and it only takes a few months of intense training, and a lot of CPs, to get to 4D in all three force skills. It takes time to create force powers without a teacher.
As an example, Anakin in TPM is a starting character, RAW. 3D Control, Concentration and Enhance Attribute. I don't remember him making any Sense or Alter rolls. That leaves him with 17 Attribute Dice and 5 skill dice to place. If we give him 4D in MEC & TEC, everything falls into place. Granted, he is probably the only starting character in the films. I could make an argument for Han as a starting character in Solo.
I can't think of anything else in the movies that violate RAW besides Rey. That's the thrust of the Mary Sue argument, the rules don't apply to her. |
D6 tries to emulate the movies, but the movies aren't beholden to the rules of a game written 20 years before it came out. If you look at RAW, then the prequels don't fit with it either. They're able to do all kinds of crazy stuff that aren't doable in the Rules as Written, we've had to house rule for that.
Now, if you want to talk house rules, it's possible that Rey's character was made using a Force Attribute, which she dumped everything possible, and then has been using Force powers to augment her skills which she hasn't spent nearly as many points on. Take a look at a character who uses Concentration as written on every roll they possibly can, augmenting combat skills with Combat Sense and possibly a lightsaber combat variant which applies to all combat, not just lightsabers.
Or perhaps, she rolled up her character in D20 and had amazing luck with her attribute rolls, and rolled straight 18s, then converted them over to D6 giving her straight 4D attributes.
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WillTasker
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Joined: 25 Jan 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Just throwing my hat into the discussion, take it with two cents.
My issues with the new films is that, while I love the new actors, the writing is bad. A good story has characters orbiting the plot, the plot shouldn't orbit the characters. Rey, as much as I like Daisy Ridley in the role, is poorly written not because she's a Mary Sue - Captain Kirk is a Mary Sue and he's adored, Wesley Crusher is also a Mary Sue and is hated - but simply because she earns nothing she's given. She increases in her abilities because the storyline demands it, not because she sacrificed and grew from failures and teachings. (I'd argue that for all her forward progressions, Luke regresses so far backward to actually be a bigger whiner than when he was going to Tossce Station!) This is is the cusp of bad writing: when your characters move from point to point for the necessity of the story, not the necessity of the character's wants/needs/growths/etc. But that doesn't mean she's a Mary Sue, which is usually a writer's self-insert or wish-fulfilment. Again: a "good" example is Captain Kirk and a "bad" example is Harry Potter.
Another example in the failings of the writing is the existence of the New Order. Do you mean to tell me the New Republic just didn't pay attention to a rising form of fascism with its own military? Why was it left to Leia to fix? This is because they couldn't find a good, logical reason to use the OT's tropes of good versus evil. (I was reminded quite a bit of the opening text for the recent Battlestar Galactica reboot, which amounted to "The cyborgs that tried to kill humanity left to another galaxy. We really couldn't be bothered to check on them after that.")
I also think the new "numbered" movies are written too broadly, in that they use humor to kick the knees out from their characters. A good example is Finn wandering around the ship in TLJ while wearing a squirting bacta suit. This paints him as an idiot to the audiences because hes unaware of himself even more than his surroundings. We should want to see heroes built up, not beaten down. But then, Luke's fate as the last of the Jedi shows they weren't interested in mythical heroes but just kicking the audience where it counted. (Rian also wrote that line of Snoke saying "Take that stupid mask off" to Kylo Ren which was most certainly a pointed statement at either the SW series or just JJ Abrams and TFA. I'll leave it up to you to decide.)
As to D6, I'd say the DM flubbed a lot of rules to keep the PCs interested in the plot  |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But being good in melee, does NOT via WEG rules, equate to being good with a lightsaber. And even if she was 'by default' good with a lightsaber, i can't see how she could have stood up to someone BETTER with a lightsaber, AND WHO has lightsaber combat up (Kylo or those red knights protecting Snoke). |
Yeah but this is as old (for me) as Alien 3. Hollywood just doesn't care what we comic and RPG consumers have been up to in the years between films 
I can't really reconcile the new movies to what I "know" from my D6 days, without doing some serious mental gymnastics. But between the times when the oceans drank West End Games, and before the rise of the sons of Disney, I got a theater degree. So I think I manage to interpret the new movies pretty clinically, assessing what works and doesn't work and why.
I think in this case, she starts off with higher stats in TFA than Luke had in ANH. I do think her life was much more demanding and dangerous on Jaaku than his was on Tatooine. So her survival indicates she was pretty good.
Lukes stats in the SW Sourcebook, vs his stats in the ESB Galaxy guide never made a whole ton of sense to me personally. He's a Brash Pilot, not a Minor Jedi, meaning he starts with no force dice. So he learned something like 5D worth of force skills from Obi-Wan on the Falcon? Then another 12D or something from Yoda? Given that, she really could have learned a ton in her short training time. It's still more training than Luke got in ANH to get his 3D of control and 2D of sense or whatever he had (I don't have the book in front of me) as of the battle of Yavin. I think he had 3D control at Yavin and 9D control at Bespin. So maybe she was halfway between with 6D in control? Not too shabby. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | You are totally taking Daisy Ridley's words out of context, but I suspect you are only hearing about this secondhand from someone who is intentionally twisting her words towards their bash. |
Wrong. I heard the initial statement in the video I posted above, then did a Google Search to see if I could independently verify this. The source I found was a Forbes article, in which the author reaches a different conclusion - that Rey is not a Mary Sue - while simultaneously lamenting her weak story arc. I just happen to disagree with the author's conclusions.
The point the video makes is not that Mary Sues are flawless, but rather that their flaws are trivial or inconsequential. Rey's grief of abandonment is less of a flaw than it is a story factor that has kept her on Jakku long enough for the film to start, at which point it's no longer much of a driving factor. As for her fear of Kylo Ren and her inability to stop him from freezing her? That would make more sense if she didn't turn right around at the end of TFA and defeat him in a lightsaber duel, highlighting the drastic increase in her power level for no apparent reason.
The stuff you point out are all possible explanations for what we've seen so far, but depend on a degree of optimism about Disney's treatment of Star Wars to this point that is, IMO, unwarranted. Not that I want Star Wars to be a failure; I just don't think what we've seen to this point instills a lot of faith that Abrams & Kennedy et. al. have the chops to pull it off.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTasker wrote: | | Just throwing my hat into the discussion, take it with two cents. |
That's a fair point. Of course, basing the determination of the "Mary Sue"-ness of a character on whether or not it symbolizes wish fulfillment on the part of the writer is a lot easier to determine in the case of a single-author fan fiction than it is for something like a Hollywood film, where the script-writer is subject to input from who knows how many different sources.
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WillTasker
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | WillTasker wrote: | | Just throwing my hat into the discussion, take it with two cents. |
That's a fair point. Of course, basing the determination of the "Mary Sue"-ness of a character on whether or not it symbolizes wish fulfillment on the part of the writer is a lot easier to determine in the case of a single-author fan fiction than it is for something like a Hollywood film, where the script-writer is subject to input from who knows how many different sources. |
(Not to sound snarky but) You're totally right - but in this case, I don't think Disney or Kathleen Kennedy were giving out a lot of studio notes. JJ Abrams had complete control over the film and its outgoing material; Abrams forced JW Rinzler to cancel his Making Of TFA book, for instance (which is part and parcel given Abrams' history with Paramount and Star Trek). |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | That would make more sense if she didn't turn right around at the end of TFA and defeat him in a lightsaber duel, highlighting the drastic increase in her power level for no apparent reason.
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For TFA one, I saw it as being a stretch but at least allowable since he was shot immediately beforehand. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | You are totally taking Daisy Ridley's words out of context, but I suspect you are only hearing about this secondhand from someone who is intentionally twisting her words towards their bash. |
Wrong. I heard the initial statement in the video I posted above, then did a Google Search to see if I could independently verify this. The source I found was a Forbes article, in which the author reaches a different conclusion - that Rey is not a Mary Sue - while simultaneously lamenting her weak story arc. I just happen to disagree with the author's conclusions. |
I had already read the Forbes article too...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Daisy Ridley herself saying she thinks "Rey has no weaknesses." |
| The author of the Forbes article wrote: | | ...Ridley had a special Facebook Live event where she goes into some detail about her world view and how she doesn't really view weaknesses in people as actual weaknesses at all... Now it's clearly very easy to just say "Aha! See, even Daisy Ridley thinks that Rey is a Mary Sue!" but that's not quite right. Ridley is just not looking at her character from a writer's point of view, she's imprinting her own belief on humanity into her discussion of Rey... Without weaknesses or shortcomings, there's very little room for a satisfying character arc. Ridley is saying the same thing, she's just taking issue with the word "weakness." |
As I said, the video was twisting Daisy's Ridley's word towards their bash, and even after you read the Forbes article, you are still taking her words out of context and misunderstanding her.
| Whill wrote: | | Daisy Ridley's RL worldview includes no humans having character "weaknesses". She said flowery stuff to the effect of, 'They aren't weaknesses, They are opportunities for growth.' In other words, she takes issue with the words "weakness" and "flaw" being used to describe any people so much that she even applies that to discussing human fictional characters. Daisy Ridley never meant that Rey doesn't actually have any weaknesses and character flaws from a literary perspective. This citation debunked. |
"Daisy Ridley Says That Rey Has No Weaknesses" is actually just a somewhat sensationalized title of the article. Daisy Ridley never actually said that, so citation debunked. The article subtitle is, "Rey does have weaknesses, even if Daisy Ridley doesn't think so" which is still out of context. About Rey, she actually said she doesn't view her obsession about her parents to be a "weakness". If you read the whole article and other sources, she obviously doesn't feel anyone has weaknesses. This does not at all support one specific fictional character being a Mary Sue.
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The stuff you point out are all possible explanations for what we've seen so far, but depend on a degree of optimism about Disney's treatment of Star Wars to this point that is, IMO, unwarranted. Not that I want Star Wars to be a failure; I just don't think what we've seen to this point instills a lot of faith that Abrams & Kennedy et. al. have the chops to pull it off. |
After the Daisy Ridley quotes issue, I didn't provide any explanations in my previous post. Paragraphs 2-4 are just factual statements about the movies with a couple brief conclusion comments.
I am also expressing almost no optimism. I have enjoyed TFA a lot on its own, but it ultimately doesn't stand on its own. After TLJ, I am skeptical about the future. (Since TLJ came out, I've had no desire to watch either sequel but I completed the obligatory viewing of TLJ when I first brought it home.) I stated the fact that the trilogy isn't over yet. From a purely 'Mr. Spock' logical perspective, there remains two possibilities. Episode IX may provide satisfying explanations for the issues you have, or it may not. When I urge detractors to wait until it is over to decide, it isn't out of hope or optimism. It is about the undeniable fact that we do not actually know the future. No matter how slim you feel the possibility is that Episode IX could save the trilogy, making a final judgement now is prejudice. In my experience, if you expect not to like something, there is a greater chance that you won't. I am more doubtful about Episode IX than I have ever been about any SW movie, but I am keeping an open mind and giving it the benefit of the doubt. It will be whatever it will be, when it is. And then I'll decide how much I like it all.
In my experience, elaborate Mary Sue criticisms for characters in fandoms tend to be thinly veiled bashes trying to sound intelligent and unbiased while ignoring some things (like how my descriptions of Rey's flaws are just dismissed). Unfortunately, many fans just can't have personal reactions to things and decide if they like something or not on their own. They unnecessarily try to "validate" their views with arguments when your reaction to a movie or character only has to be personal and subjective. Throwing the label on it does what? Fans either (1) like Rey and don't think she is a Mary Sue, (2) think she is Mary Sue and like her anyway because they don't care, or (3) don't like her either way. Whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not ultimately doesn't matter to that personal reaction, so this case-building against characters amounts to blowhard negativity and nerd posturing.
And not to mention that defining a character as a Mary Sue is very often motivated by disgusting misogyny because, 'How could a mere woman be so uber at anything?'
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| WillTasker wrote: | | I don't think Disney or Kathleen Kennedy were giving out a lot of studio notes. JJ Abrams had complete control over the film and its outgoing material; Abrams forced JW Rinzler to cancel his Making Of TFA book, for instance (which is part and parcel given Abrams' history with Paramount and Star Trek). |
Everything I've read and seen has given to this impression as well.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | That would make more sense if she didn't turn right around at the end of TFA and defeat him in a lightsaber duel, highlighting the drastic increase in her power level for no apparent reason.
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For TFA one, I saw it as being a stretch but at least allowable since he was shot immediately beforehand. |
That's a good point. Detractors always conveniently forget that Ren took a bowcaster blast before going into that fight. His overconfidence was his weakness. It is a common Star Wars villain trait.
And again, the increase in her power level is what the title of the movie refers to. The reason for it may become more apparent in Episode IX. If it isn't answered in that, then the fact that they have already stated there are no current plans to continue's Rey story beyond that would then give us a valid complaint. Waiting 4 years to get the answer is nothing if it is a good answer.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | And not to mention that defining a character as a Mary Sue is very often motivated by disgusting misogyny because, 'How could a mere woman be so uber at anything?' |
Or it could be a legitimate criticism offered by a disappointed fan who would be perfectly fine with a powerful female character if the method that female used to achieve that level of power was consistent with the already-established rules of the universe. Nobody complains, for example, about Jean Grey / Dark Phoenix in the X-Men universe being overpowering because she conforms to the rules of her universe.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:53 am Post subject: |
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"legitimate criticism"? What authority "legitimizes" the criticisms? Literature Devil? Criticisms are subjective.
"already established rules of the universe"? Who determines these rules? The film creators. Every new film is an expansion of the universe. Expansions of the universe retcon the "rules". Attack of the Clones changed the rules of Jedi forbidding marriage. A lot of people cried about it. Lucas erased the old republic comics and ruined their childhood. But now Attack of the Clones is part of the established "rules"? The prequels changed the "rules" on the Force, but further expansions of the universe can't change the "rules" anymore? That's an arbitrary standard.
The video saying there are "rules" being violated is another common tactic of bashers who try to misrepresent their opinions as objective facts. It's dishonest, and totally unnecessary because fans do need any justification to hate Rey or the ST. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Your opinions are valid on their own, but they are only opinions. They may be based on your personally accepted rules, not some universal rules for all Star Wars movies for all time.
Brother, I am sorry that the new films are not more to your liking, but a lot of us are hoping to enjoy Episode IX and don't want to poison ourselves to it.
| Quote: | | Your least favorite Star Wars film is another die hard fan's favorite movie. Attempting to persuade others to hate a film as much as you do will not be tolerated. Do not even post links to bashing. If someone else enjoys a Star Wars film you don't, let them. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
Take a look at a character who uses Concentration as written on every roll they possibly can, augmenting combat skills with Combat Sense and possibly a lightsaber combat variant which applies to all combat, not just lightsabers.
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IIRC on concentration, it specifies you can't do anything else in the round you use it, and as keeping up force skills IS an action, you couldn't keep a force skill up, and then use it to bolster your brawl/,melee attack. OR do a dodge/parry. So that might be out. And she was going at it with Kylo before she even heard/handled a LS< so where did she learn lightsaber combat at? Certainly not from luke..
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