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The Last Jedi - Thoughts and Reactions
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Other thought and/or reaction. How did DJ know about the escaping transports in order to sell out the rebels? Nobody knew about that, it's not like Rose or Finn could have told him.

I haven't see the movie since last year so I'm a little rusty on it, but wasn't the whole point of getting a codebreaker to infiltrate the FO ship and disable their ability to track the Resistance fleet? DJ had to know what they were doing to do it, so he told the FO the plan to cut his deal. DJ didn't know about Crait being nearby because Holdo kept that secret from even Poe, so Rose or Finn wouldn't know about that either.

But it never made sense For Holdo to keep Crait secret from Poe, and this is the same film that described the Resistance fleet as "faster" than the FO yet somehow always at the same distance ahead.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He makes a good point; Holdo "holding out" on the Crait plan was a big part of the impetus for Poe/Finn/Rose to act in the first place. Recall the scene when Poe finally figured out the plan and called her a traitor, but this was long after Finn and Rose had left the ship.

And if Finn and Rose didn't know about it, there was no way for them to tell DJ about it, either.

Man, just when I thought I had enough reasons to dislike TLJ, another one gets added to the stack.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There actually is an explanation for how DJ knew about the cloaked shuttles: As Finn, Rose and DJ were about to come out of hyperspace to get onboard the Supremacy (Snoke's flagship), Poe radioes them to hurry because Holdo is putting the Resistance on the cloaked shuttles. Poe's near-panicked tone lets Finn know that Poe thinks Holdo's plan is going to be a disaster. DJ, being in the cockpit with Finn (but isn't shown on camera in this particular shot), couldn't help but overhear Poe, so that's how DJ knew about the cloaked shuttles. It's basically blink-and-you'll-miss-it.

But yeah, Holdo holding out on Poe on what the plan was is pure Poor Communication Kills and Idiot Ball. If Holdo at least told Poe that there was a plan (even if she couldn't tell him about the cloaked shuttles directly for security reasons) when he first asked if there actually was a plan, then he might have been mollified enough then to accept the cloaked shuttles plan when told to board, rather than reacting badly when he found out about it on his own. Instead, she tried to teach him a lesson about "hope being like the sun: if you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night." Yeah, when a guy under your command who doesn't know or trust you (and halfway suspects you might be a traitor because you're so close-mouthed) is trying to find assurance that there is a plan to get everyone away safely is exactly the wrong time to try to teach a cryptic lesson about the dangers of false hope. After all, he might misunderstand your intentions and mutiny. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
It's basically blink-and-you'll-miss-it.

I guess I blinked. But then, I haven't bothered to watch (or even purchase a copy of) TLJ since it was in theaters. I expect I'll pick up a copy of Solo at some point, but TLJ pretty well burned me on the new Star Wars films.

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After all, he might misunderstand your intentions and mutiny. Rolling Eyes

Yeah, go figure. People have tried to compare the utter collapse of the Resistance in TLJ to that of ESB, but it just doesn't feel the same. In ESB, there was the sense that, no matter how good the protagonists were, their opponents were just better (too powerful, or outsmarted them, in the case of Boba Fett). The Rebels in ESB lacked the sense of incompetence that seems to permeate almost every action taken by the Resistance in TLJ.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Yeah, go figure. People have tried to compare the utter collapse of the Resistance in TLJ to that of ESB, but it just doesn't feel the same. In ESB, there was the sense that, no matter how good the protagonists were, their opponents were just better (too powerful, or outsmarted them, in the case of Boba Fett). The Rebels in ESB lacked the sense of incompetence that seems to permeate almost every action taken by the Resistance in TLJ.


Well, maybe the resistance lost a lot of good folk, when dark star base fired.. SO only had the incompetents left when they were fleeing..
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, maybe the resistance lost a lot of good folk, when dark star base fired.. SO only had the incompetents left when they were fleeing..

So Leia and Ackbar were incompetents? That sounds unlikely. Or at least less likely than garbage script-writing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
After all, he might misunderstand your intentions and mutiny. Rolling Eyes

Yeah, go figure. People have tried to compare the utter collapse of the Resistance in TLJ to that of ESB, but it just doesn't feel the same. In ESB, there was the sense that, no matter how good the protagonists were, their opponents were just better (too powerful, or outsmarted them, in the case of Boba Fett). The Rebels in ESB lacked the sense of incompetence that seems to permeate almost every action taken by the Resistance in TLJ.


This. So much this. Yeah, the Battle of Hoth in ESB was pretty devastaing for the Rebellion as some sources say that only 13 of 30 GR-90 transports managed to get away from Hoth while the other 17 were destroyed by Death Squadron. In at least the ESB comic and maybe the novelization of ESB, an Imperial officer tells Darth Vader that 17 transports were destroyed but that they don't know how many got away. Other sources say that there were only 30 GR-90s parked at Echo base. And this was actually with the Hoth ion cannon providing cover fire against Death Squadron! Anything over 30% casualties is regarded as completely devastating for an army and the Rebellion at Hoth suffered more than 50%. It's a testament to the resiliency of the Rebellion that they were able to mount a major attack against the second Death Star only a year later.

But as CRM says, they Rebels did everything they could at Hoth to get away with as much as they could and were not the least bit incompetent in how they managed to hold out as long as they did against a vastly superior force. It's been lampshaded several times that it was the Empire that was incompetent at Hoth for not wiping out the Rebellion then and there. (Still, all things considered, Admiral Ozzel really didn't ruin the Empire's advantage of surprise as the Rebellion already knew about the probe droid and had already started the evacuation of Hoth when the Imperials arrived. But Darth Vader didn't know that...)

But yeah, the Resistance during the events of TLJ had alot less unit cohesion with Poe and Holdo butting heads and the entire Resistance suffered for it immensely. CRM is right when the Resistance and the Rebellion (and, by extension, the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Crait) don't feel equivalent at all. Then again, the differences between the Rebellion and the Resistance might be a central theme of the story of TLJ that is lampshaded when Luke says "the Rebellion is reborn today" as he distracts Kylo Ren and allows Poe and company to escape his nephew's clutches. Just as the sacrifice of Rogue One at the Battle of Scarif allowed the Rebllion to rally and defeat the Death Star (and eventually the Empire), Luke's sacrifice at the Battle of Crait might allow the Resistance to learn from the Rebellion's experience in order to rally and defeat the First Order.

History may or may not repeat, but it does seem to rhyme alot.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Well, maybe the resistance lost a lot of good folk, when dark star base fired.. SO only had the incompetents left when they were fleeing..

So Leia and Ackbar were incompetents? That sounds unlikely. Or at least less likely than garbage script-writing.


Starkiller Base, not Dark Star Base. Razz

But it wasn't competent members of the Resistance who were wiped out at Hosnian Prime, it was the New Republic's government that was destroyed. The only confirmed member of the Resistance present at Hosnian Prime was Leia's envoy, Commander Korr Sella, the woman standing next to the Republic's chancellor Lanever Villecham. Sella was trying to convince Villecham to mobilize the Republic Navy against the First Order when Starkiller Base fired. If only they could have mobilized against Starkiller Base sooner...

It was incompetents in the New Republic government who wouldn't listen to Leia and thought she was a warmonger who were killed, not any incompetent members of the Resistance. Plenty of people who refused to take the threat of the First Order seriously got killed, but so did billions of innocents on five separate worlds. But aside from Sella, no other (confirmed) members of the Resistance were killed at Hosnian Prime, incompetent or otherwise.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... because Poe sounds panicked, ergo ipso facto, cloaked transports and a dummy flagship. Not buying it.

There are things I do and don't accept within the specific context of Star Wars. Sound and explosions in space are specifically allowed in because most of us have never flown spaceships. However, instinctively knowing the sheer improbability of being in the right place at the right time to see an eclipse keeps me from accepting that everyone in the galaxy could watch those planets blowing up. Likewise, based on my experience of having conversations, I cannot accept that DJ deduced the secret rebel plan via a panicked tone of voice.

And compared to most everyone I know in meatspace, I actually liked the sequels.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
There actually is an explanation for how DJ knew about the cloaked shuttles: As Finn, Rose and DJ were about to come out of hyperspace to get onboard the Supremacy (Snoke's flagship), Poe radioes them to hurry because Holdo is putting the Resistance on the cloaked shuttles. Poe's near-panicked tone lets Finn know that Poe thinks Holdo's plan is going to be a disaster. DJ, being in the cockpit with Finn (but isn't shown on camera in this particular shot), couldn't help but overhear Poe, so that's how DJ knew about the cloaked shuttles. It's basically blink-and-you'll-miss-it.

Thanks.

Sutehp wrote:
But yeah, Holdo holding out on Poe on what the plan was is pure Poor Communication Kills and Idiot Ball. If Holdo at least told Poe that there was a plan (even if she couldn't tell him about the cloaked shuttles directly for security reasons) when he first asked if there actually was a plan, then he might have been mollified enough then to accept the cloaked shuttles plan when told to board, rather than reacting badly when he found out about it on his own. Instead, she tried to teach him a lesson about "hope being like the sun: if you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night." Yeah, when a guy under your command who doesn't know or trust you (and halfway suspects you might be a traitor because you're so close-mouthed) is trying to find assurance that there is a plan to get everyone away safely is exactly the wrong time to try to teach a cryptic lesson about the dangers of false hope. After all, he might misunderstand your intentions and mutiny.

Hope, schmope. The real reason for Holdo keeping the plan from Poe is to give Poe something to do in the second act, and to contrive a reason for Rose and Finn's mission, which ultimately serves the purpose of Finn finally committing to the Resistance cause. It is true that any plot point can be said to serve the plot, but unfortunately here it just feels so contrived and ideally it won't.

Finn's "Rebel scum" moment with Phasma is awesome, but its payoff in the third act is Finn stupidly flying through the siege beam instead of just flying up beside it until the last second. When I first watched TLJ I enjoyed Poe's rebellion as it was happening, but that was because I didn't know if Holdo was a traitor or what at the time. After learning there was a plan all along and Holdo really didn't have a good in-story reason to keep it from Poe, the story just all starts to fall apart for me. Holdo could have been Ackbar, who could have told Poe the plan and Poe just disagreed with it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I expect I'll pick up a copy of Solo at some point, but TLJ pretty well burned me on the new Star Wars films.

With the exception of Chewie, the Falcon and Han's lucky dice, Solo has absolutely nothing to do with TLJ. Don't let TLJ ruin Solo for you. Solo has already suffered unfairly due to TLJ. It doesn't deserve it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Other sources say that there were only 30 GR-90s parked at Echo base.

There were also, per the RASB (page 126), six Kleeque-Class Transports: converted inter-system ferries with a much higher transport capacity than the G75's. It's possible that the bulk of the personnel were shipped off-planet aboard the Kleeques in the first wave of the evacuation, if only to explain why they're never seen on-screen.

Quote:
It's been lampshaded several times that it was the Empire that was incompetent at Hoth for not wiping out the Rebellion then and there.

True, but there's a saying I've heard; "quantity has a quality all its own." Put simply, regardless of their command incompetence, the Death Squadron still had enough combat power (especially in the ground assault element) to steamroll right over anything the Alliance could put in their path.

Quote:
Still, all things considered, Admiral Ozzel really didn't ruin the Empire's advantage of surprise as the Rebellion already knew about the probe droid and had already started the evacuation of Hoth when the Imperials arrived. But Darth Vader didn't know that...

The explanation I've always preferred was that the Emperor was planting spies on Vader, and that Vader's seeming capriciousness was an excuse for him to remove the spies, with the added result of por encourager les autres.

I rather liked the new Vader comic book series, and it makes it clear that Vader has his own side deals going on that he doesn't want the Emperor finding out about, so the Emperor planting disposable spies on him makes even more sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
After learning there was a plan all along and Holdo really didn't have a good in-story reason to keep it from Poe, the story just all starts to fall apart for me. Holdo could have been Ackbar, who could have told Poe the plan and Poe just disagreed with it.

Indeed. In fact, considering the way the opening battle played out, it would make more sense for Poe to know about the plan and hare off on his own alternate plan because he disagreed with it, only to have it go horribly wrong. The story arc makes more sense if Poe has a brief moment of success in doing his own thing (taking out the Dreadnaught against orders), only to have the same modus operandi backfire on him midway through the film.

Quote:
With the exception of Chewie, the Falcon and Han's lucky dice, Solo has absolutely nothing to do with TLJ. Don't let TLJ ruin Solo for you. Solo has already suffered unfairly due to TLJ. It doesn't deserve it.

I'm leaning that way, but I'm having to cut back expenses quite a bit lately, so not a lot to spare for buying movies (groceries are more important). Maybe in a month or two.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

With the exception of Chewie, the Falcon and Han's lucky dice, Solo has absolutely nothing to do with TLJ. Don't let TLJ ruin Solo for you. Solo has already suffered unfairly due to TLJ. It doesn't deserve it.


I agree. I saw it in theatre and have seen it a few times on Netflix. It grows on me a little more each time.

TLJ seems to be having the opposite. I seem to enjoy it a bit less with every viewing. Sad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
TLJ seems to be having the opposite. I seem to enjoy it a bit less with every viewing. Sad

I can't even bring myself to watch it again at all, so I'm way behind my schedule. I wanted to watch the score-only audio version and the audio commentary version by now, but haven't. I probably will not watch TLJ again until December when I watch TFA and TLJ before seeing TRoS.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Other sources say that there were only 30 GR-90s parked at Echo base.

There were also, per the RASB (page 126), six Kleeque-Class Transports: converted inter-system ferries with a much higher transport capacity than the G75's. It's possible that the bulk of the personnel were shipped off-planet aboard the Kleeques in the first wave of the evacuation, if only to explain why they're never seen on-screen.


That's right, I forgot about the Kleeque-class transports. So yeah, if we take them into account, their much larger cargo capacity would have allowed far more of the Hoth personnel to get away than with just the Gallofree ships. (Oops on the "GR-90/GR75" confusion; I must have been confusing the GR75 with the CR90 again. Razz )

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
It's been lampshaded several times that it was the Empire that was incompetent at Hoth for not wiping out the Rebellion then and there.

True, but there's a saying I've heard; "quantity has a quality all its own." Put simply, regardless of their command incompetence, the Death Squadron still had enough combat power (especially in the ground assault element) to steamroll right over anything the Alliance could put in their path.


Indeed, I even recall this being lampshaded in Lost Stars when Ciena Ree is reviewing the Battle of Hoth footage trying to figure out how and why the Empire was unable to stomp out the Rebellion right then and there at Hoth even with their overwhelming military advantage. (Then Ciena realizes that Thane has joined the Rebellion when she recognizes his piloting as he was flying a snowspeeder at Hoth...)

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Still, all things considered, Admiral Ozzel really didn't ruin the Empire's advantage of surprise as the Rebellion already knew about the probe droid and had already started the evacuation of Hoth when the Imperials arrived. But Darth Vader didn't know that...

The explanation I've always preferred was that the Emperor was planting spies on Vader, and that Vader's seeming capriciousness was an excuse for him to remove the spies, with the added result of por encourager les autres.

I rather liked the new Vader comic book series, and it makes it clear that Vader has his own side deals going on that he doesn't want the Emperor finding out about, so the Emperor planting disposable spies on him makes even more sense.


I never read the Darth Vader comics, but I did hear that Vader and Palpatine were constantly trying to secretly outmaneuver each other in those stories. And that makes sense because that's how Sith truly interact with each other: a constant game of oneupmanship in order for the Apprentice to become the Master as the Master tries to stay on top. We saw a bit of this when Vader tries to get Luke to his side in ESB and ROTJ in order to overthrow the Emperor. Of course, Ol' Palpy had his own ideas about how Luke could serve the Sith... But yeah, more stories exploring the Sith nature of the rivalry between Vader and Sidious are worth doing.
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