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The Nature of Official Rules
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:44 pm    Post subject: The Nature of Official Rules Reply with quote

Power Control (The Far Orbit Project)...

Quote:
You have another thread right now about clarifying RAW skill names, but here you are getting way overly hung up on the word "Repair"

And the main reason I started that topic was because of the limitations I saw in the RAW w/r/t this topic, in that, while Capital Ship Piloting was the obvious skill to be used here (based on the portfolios of the various skills and attributes), it was not immediately apparent from the title of the skill.

Quote:
OBVIOUSLY, the "repair" skills do more than just 'repair' per RAW. For example, as pointed out, they also modify completely undamaged technologies - R&E p. 59-65 is quite explicit about this. Now if you want to restrict the skills more than RAW according to strict word definitions for your own game, of course you are free to do that, but in the spirit of your other thread, wouldn't it make more sense to simply rename the skills more generally to encompass all of its purposes?

This conversation took place in the Official Rules section, where the purpose is to "Discuss the official WEG Star Wars RPG rules, interpretations, and rules questions." It's the one place on this forum where certain things actually are set in stone, because that's how WEG wrote them. Your cited examples of Repair being used for modification, Grenade for throwing rocks and Pick Pocket for sleight-of-hand are all explicitly spelled out in the rules, and thus can be used as such, because the RAW says they can. What Repair does not say is that it can be used to operate ship systems that are not malfunctioning or damaged.

Now, if people wish to allow Repair to be used as such, that is certainly their prerogative. But here, in the Official Rules section, the RAW says what it says and does not say what it does not say. I present the following quotes from the 2R&E Rulebook.
Quote:
Mechanical stands for "mechanical aptitude" and represents how well a character can pilot vehicles and starships and operate the various systems on board. (emphasis mine)
Quote:
Technical stands for "technical aptitude" and represents a character's innate knowledge of how to take apart, repair and modify things.
Quote:
Characters with this skill [Space Transports] can repair and modify Space Transports.
Quote:
This repair skill [Starfighter Repair] represents a character's ability to fix and modify starfighters.
Quote:
Capital Ship Piloting covers the operation of large combat starships.

Do whatever you like in your game, but the original question was:
Quote:
exactly WHAT skill does an operator roll to facilitate power transfer?

Since this was being asked in the Official Rules section, the correct answer is not "what I think it should be," but "what does the RAW say it should be?" Based on the literal reading of the skill and attribute descriptions printed out in all of our copies of the 2R&E Rulebook, the answer is "Capital Ship Piloting." If you want to allow Repair here, or let your 4D Knowledge character to finally be able to use the CP he wasted on Scholar: Power Transfer Systems, then more power to you, but that doesn't change what's written in the RAW.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me the still wast list of skills are all very generalistic and covers a very wide area of "know how"

if we look at repair skill to go with RAW then no you can not PILOT or DRIVE a car or starship, at all.

However you can modify repair systems that makes it easier to later pilot the vessel, etc.

As to power rerouting the first thing is a definition before even discussing the ifs and the raws.

What is power rerouting?

I am in combat, I flip a switch to.....
anything you flip a switch to do is operation/piloting skill as well as much more

Now if we think about reducing power from lets say shields and then change up wireing and the like then this will be repair.

Then if power rerouting what I think it is then it is a changing where power is routed, as in the left wing is damaged, we can't repair this now but we can rerout the power and make it not go through the wing, thus restoting power to the sensors. The once a difficulty is determined by a REPAIR check which would be anything with opening up stuff, moving wires and such, then you roll and the power is rerouted.


However flipping a switch to give sytem A power and turn off system B is maybe rerouting of power, but it is flips being switched in the cockpit.


Then the thing about allowing repair to operate.

Picture this, you go into a car, and with engine alone, you effectively turn accelerate, brake and even signal?

Ergo reper can not operate a system, but it can pull wires and put down wires @$$ in bypassing systems and rerouting power
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Ergo repair can not operate a system, but it can pull wires and put down wires @$$ in bypassing systems and rerouting power

Agreed, but in this case, the effect of rerouting power around a damaged area would be seen in a reduction or elimination of penalty from the damage inflicted. It's also possible, in the absence of a engineer to perform repairs, that the pilot could divert auxiliary power to offset any damage penalties, but that would render it unusable for anything else. It would have the same effect as a repair job, but would just be a temporary fix, not an actual repair.

I can also see rush jobs on power routing being used in emergency jury rig jobs, such as if a ship with a x2 hyperdrive is trying to escape from a black hole, so the engineer rigs a set of jumper cables off the main reactor power feeds in order to tie in the backup hyperdrive as a booster so the ship could hit x1/2.
    "Man, that was close... Wait a second, the inertial position log says we're hitting Point Five with a Point Three hyperdrive. How is that possible?"

    "Don't ask. Oh, and we'll need to buy a new set of power shunt cables at our next port of call."

    "...what did you do?"

    "I said don't ask."

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Ergo repair can not operate a system, but it can pull wires and put down wires @$$ in bypassing systems and rerouting power

Agreed, but in this case, the effect of rerouting power around a damaged area would be seen in a reduction or elimination of penalty from the damage inflicted. It's also possible, in the absence of a engineer to perform repairs, that the pilot could divert auxiliary power to offset any damage penalties, but that would render it unusable for anything else. It would have the same effect as a repair job, but would just be a temporary fix, not an actual repair.

I can also see rush jobs on power routing being used in emergency jury rig jobs, such as if a ship with a x2 hyperdrive is trying to escape from a black hole, so the engineer rigs a set of jumper cables off the main reactor power feeds in order to tie in the backup hyperdrive as a booster so the ship could hit x1/2.
    "Man, that was close... Wait a second, the inertial position log says we're hitting Point Five with a Point Three hyperdrive. How is that possible?"

    "Don't ask. Oh, and we'll need to buy a new set of power shunt cables at our next port of call."

    "...what did you do?"

    "I said don't ask."


I am not so sure the pilot would use any other skill than piloting to divert auxilarry power, this can be done from cockpit by flipping switches, it dos not require any actual repairing knowledge.

Look to an airliner, is a ton the pilots can do by flipping switches, including reroting power, but they do not pull out the screwdriver and begin to mess with the wires....that is repair.

it all comes down to what is reasonable and assumed to naturally fall under a skill.

Now it can be argued that pilots have some repair knowledge given their preflight inspections, but again these are superficial and visible, not using toold and opening panels.

repair will as you describe be the skill used to boost the hyeperdrive, this will most likely require rerouting of power, but not controlled by cockpit, but rather by the engineer with his tools and opeing panels, and moving wires and the like.

This amy naturally require the pilot to reroute something for the ad hoc fixes to work, but then again this will be the pilot flipping switches, and to me this is under piloting/operation

so it is about how the rerouting is done, is it from cocpit or a panel by flipping swtiches or is a tool involved, if the latter then is repair, if the former then it can easy be covered by operation/pilot


we have a fire in egine 1, we turn it off and flip a switch REROUTING the fuel away from this engine...........

something that has and do happen more often than rarely with airliners, where fule needs to be rerouted, or a system needs to be shut down, or power needed from A to B. All done in flight by pilot/cockpit crew and by flipping switches.

in this case event he flight engineer will flip switches, taking care of the systems still included in piloting, but taking the load off the pilot and focusing on the systems he needs to control, reroute etc etc
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we want to know what the rules say, we have to read the rules. Power Control is introduced as an optional rule on page 25 of the supplement The Far Orbit Project.* What the rules don't say is that Capital Ship Piloting should be used for attempting to switch power.

So what do the rules say?

As part of the optional rule we are given one example, "Captain Vedij [of the Far Orbit] orders extra power routed to the main weapons and shields." The text goes on to discuss how power control can take (or reroute) dice from one system or systems to augment a different system or systems. No skill rolls are mentioned initially. Then the rules provide a table of base difficulties for transferring power. Immediately after the table the text says

"Power switching takes time, however. When the shield operator rolls as indicated above, compare the result to the table below."

To succeed in switching power, a player must roll above the particular difficulty in the table. The time required for power switching is determined by how much the shield operator exceeded the difficulty in the first table.

So we see that a roll is made by the shield operator. Now clearly Capital Ship Shields is a different skill than Capital Ship Piloting. But it is the roll of the shield operator, not the pilot nor some ship's operation crew person that determines if power can be routed and how long the rerouting takes. (Durations range from 1 second to 2D rounds.)

I think it's clear since the designer didn't list a skill different from shield operations, the intent was that the Capital Ship Shields skill of the shield operator should be rolled for power switching to (and probably from) the shields.


* I didn't find any reference to rules for power switching in Pirates & Privateers.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not an explicit statement, but certainly a strong inference. And of all the ship crew duties, shield operation under the RAW bears the closest resemblance to power distribution. Not to mention that the shield operator generally has the least to do in a combat scene...
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the case of the shile operatoor and power switching, was this in RAW an exampla, or the "only" type of power switching.

Can this be exact process, and description be used with the skill names space tansports, can the power be switched only form sields, or can any system operator do a power switch related to his system.

Shield operator shileds
gunner weapons systems
sensor operator sensors
etc etc.

if the raw only states a combat example with blaster then this does not negate any other weapons, but is meant as as an example of how combat or the action is done.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Not to mention that the shield operator generally has the least to do in a combat scene...
Unless combat goes poorly, the engineer has even less to do in a space combat scene.

Mamatried wrote:
in the case of the shile operatoor and power switching, was this in RAW an exampla, or the "only" type of power switching.
It takes up nearly one entire page, but it's not a particularly well written optional rule. Absent the example, here's what the rule parts say.

"A ship has enough power available to run all of its systems simultaneously, and has enough carrying capacity to channel up to an additional +2D to any system, rerouted from any other system. This power is in raw form, and has no benefit to computer systems, like the navigational computer or targeting systems. It might be able to boost communications range or active sensor scans.

In addition, power is commonly routed from an inactive system to an active one, and from non-firing weapons to firing weapons."

This is followed by a somewhat rambling example that concludes by comparing power switching to the way that starfighters with shields will often switch "shield power to a particular side the pilot expects to come under heavy fire." The author makes the optional rule less clear by failing to mention that unlike the optional rule on power switching, in the RAW, starship shields are not fully powered in all arcs, the listed shield strength must be divided between among the various arcs.

The rules continue.

"Please note that ships moving All-Out (at the highest rate of speed) cannot fire or maneuver, and may not be able to use shields, at the gamemaster's discretion; this can be chalked up to routing all available power to the engines.

Transferring some power is a demanding task, and carries some built-in difficulties."

A difficulty table is provided, which I summarize.

    Simple power rerouting (single system to single recipient) is Moderate.

    Rerouting multiple systems to a single recipient is Difficult.

    Rerouting multiple systems to multiple recipients is Very Difficult.


"Power switching takes time, however. When the shield operator rolls as indicated above, compare the result to the table below."

[Annoyingly the author does not make it explicit if rolls must be made only for the inactive system, only for the active system, or for both systems. And the reverts back to his example and only refers to a shield operator rather than describing a set of skills that would apply more generally if power were switched to weapons, communications, or sensors. One might presume that the skill would relate to the relevant system, but it is seemingly left up to the GM to decide if one roll or two rolls are needed. The write up then ends with another table. Which I again summarize.]

Operator's Roll....Time Taken
1-5......................2D rounds
6-10.....................1D rounds
11-15.....................2 rounds
16-20.....................1 round
21+........................1 second
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cocpit of a fighter with 1 maybe 2 crew does not have many options to swwitch power or even reroute, but there are still some, like the transfer of auxilary power to sensors, shileds, or power from a non fireing to a fireing systems.

However all this in a fighter cockpit is done by simply flipping a switch, and it makes zero sense and was most likely never the intention of the RAW to demand a seperate skill to flip switches in a cockpit.

That means that unless we scale upp systems and the operational demands, any and all powewr rerouting or power switching is covered by the operatio/piloting skill by flipping switches in the cockpit.

now if we look to a star destroyer we have the large crew pits, each with different system stations, one being sensors, one being communications, gunney etc.

due to these bing at different stations and due to size, the process of rerouting ans switching power is far more demanding than in a smaller cockpit. A small sixe craft/cockpit will be very similar to <one> of the star destroyers systems.


to give this a visual look to apollo 13, everything normally done including power switching and rerouting could be done just fine in any of the two crafts, however since one was almsot out of power and had to server as the lifepod, they had to do a deeper power transfer one that would require repair and not merely operation/piloting. as in they had to do more than simply flip a switch.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great points here, but this discussion is somewhat rehashing the discussion in the Power Routing (for freighters) from February, which refers back to CRM's Advanced Starfighter Combat thread. FYI so we aren't completely reinventing the spaceship power core here.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without rewriting what is and and all that.

Even the long fluff text regarding power rerouting/switching is a described example.

If we were to stick word by to raw then this can not be done on any ship smaller than capital ship, as it is capital ship that is written.

So the whole thing is about examples.
The more complex the ship and the larger the sytems the bigger operation it is.

For most frieghters and fighter or what players generally can get their hands on to use this is all done in the flip of a switch in the cocpit.

There is not reference in any canon to indicate otherwise.

ALL power switching retouring to any sytem is done by the flip of a switch
in a capital ship this is done by flipping a series of switches in the right order.

Nothing requiring any form of repair skill whatsoever.

However if a system is destroyed or damaged, and it needs to be repiaerd then repairing here can be used to simply diconnect this sytem, diverting power to the other sytems that is again rerouted/switced by the flipping of switches and pressing of buttonf in the cockpit, that is why the buttons and switches are there.

So what the ruels experpt say is an example on how to reroute ower in a capital ship, Not how to do this in afriehger or a figher at all as for these shipe types the power controls are all in the cockpit and at the flip of a button...using one skill called piloting/operation.

After all power rerouting in it simplest form is tuning on the brights when driving, I have yet to see this requiring any form of mechanical skill.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Great points here, but this discussion is somewhat rehashing the discussion in the Power Routing (for freighters) from February, which refers back to CRM's Advanced Starfighter Combat thread.
Yes Whill, I don't get the sense that anyone is changing their point of view on if and how power routing should work. Those favoring it just takes a simple flip of a switch seem comfortable with their preconceived idea as do those who think no it's harder than that and anyway I want the engineer to have something that matters to do in combat. I'm reminded of the stormtrooper on Tatooine.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we’ve all seen instances in the game where there is some task overlap, where it could plausibly be performed by more than one skill. I can also see the logic in allowing an engineer with a high Tech level and lots of skill dice in Repair being able to operate the systems they are responsible for repairing. I can also appreciate people wanting to go their own way for their own reasons (see my signature).

However, it’s pretty clear just from the Attribute descriptions that, under a strict reading of the RAW, any normal operation of a mechanical device falls under the Mechanical Attribute.

It is not contradictory to state “the RAW say ‘x’,” and also state “you are not bound by the RAW, and may choose to do ‘y’, instead.” Heck, the RAW itself makes that point.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is called the NATURE of officila rules.

I think what we should take away from this header is this:

While some tasks are described by ONE skill, they are and meant to be examples.

If we look to the combat section and how combat is described we can argue that the firearms skill do not exist, slugthrowers are firted using blaster skill etc.

This becuse an example on combat uses the balster skill.

This is the same thing.

In short the rule exerpt that spawned this mentioned capital ship shields as a skill for using shields.

This them means that ONLY caital ship shileds exist, smaller ship despite canon and referances do not...etc etc.


The NATURE of the official ruels in all the casees are to be examples and very loose fitting ones.

I dare say the shiled power rerouting described using capital ship shiled, would NOT be possibel in a smaller ship, hence why you use the starship Shileds skill etc etc.


it is examples.

in this case it is as I see taken for granted that in most small ships mst powers are rerouted or switched by flipping switches in a comcpit. I mean we do see them fly their fighters, not stop exit and do mechanics as they ned shileds ot guns.

and that is the nature of the official rules, examples.

like if a task is described using a skill, then this is an example and if in a case of combat and a rule for shooting, ...........then all skills exist even of the example only used blaster
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In context, however, Shield Operator isn't presented as an example, but as part of the description for the result of how well the skill was rolled. Considering the larger context (text also mentions "Power Control" and "power controller"), Shield Operator may have been a typo / editorial oversight.
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