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D6 Rules...What Have The New Films Changed?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
They did some changes on the official site regarding hyperdrive:

"Large objects in normal space cast “mass shadows” in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps must be precisely calculated to avoid collisions".

Was it caused by Rogue 1 when they jumped from Jedha though falling chunks of rocks? Maybe...

Anyway, WEG rules: "The hyperspace shadow
of anything larger than a boulder can destroy a ship, and there
are countless such things drifting undiscovered in deep space."

The WEG explanation for why ships drop out of hyperspace to avoid a collision is that their onboard mass sensors can detect gravity wells in their path. The Jeddha escape was an anomaly because the only way it would work under those rules is if Cassian deactivated his mass sensors and jumped blind. Highly dangerous, yes, but at that point, they were going to die anyway.

My explanation for how route navigation works ties in with onboard flight recorders, measuring gravity (proximity to mass) and radiation levels (caused by impact with hypermatter against the ship's hyperspace field. Greater concentrations of hypermatter = more "drag", which throws off route calculations). This data is turned over by ships to BoSS when they come into port for hyperdrive overhauls, and BoSS then uses the recovered data to map and update the route, which is in turn sold back to ships in the form of regular map updates for their nav computer. Naturally, most PC groups (fringe or Rebels) are going to be very leery of turning over said data to an official organization, but that doesn't mean they can't make use of it.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know they had to switch it off. I was wondering if in this particular situation, when whole horizon collapses on the ship as smaller and larger boulders, ship did not pass through any of the mass shadow of the falling debris.

Or maybe it should be viewed as accelerating, cause ship was still visible breaking the orbit, so the rules of mass shadow collision did not apply then? But seeing the Holdo maneuver, acceleration in an environment full of debris, obstacles is equally or more dangerous.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I know they had to switch it off. I was wondering if in this particular situation, when whole horizon collapses on the ship as smaller and larger boulders, ship did not pass through any of the mass shadow of the falling debris.

Or maybe it should be viewed as accelerating, cause ship was still visible breaking the orbit, so the rules of mass shadow collision did not apply then? But seeing the Holdo maneuver, acceleration in an environment full of debris, obstacles is equally or more dangerous.

In the moment the drive kicks in, the ship accelerates almost instantly to several hundred times the speed of light. So long as there is clear space ahead of them in the instant the drive engages, there is minimal risk of a collision.

Or at least less risk of a collision than the risk of certain death if they didn't jump.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

In the moment the drive kicks in, the ship accelerates almost instantly to several hundred times the speed of light.

Did any of the WEG books mention the "minimum runaway distance"? What I mean is the distance the ship covers in real space during acceleration before dimension shift.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Did any of the WEG books mention the "minimum runaway distance"? What I mean is the distance the ship covers in real space during acceleration before dimension shift.

Per WEG and the EU, none at all. The appearance of movement is explained as "pseudomotion", an optical illusion caused by the ship's sudden, massive acceleration into a higher dimension. No mention is ever made of it covering any sort of realspace distance.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:

In the moment the drive kicks in, the ship accelerates almost instantly to several hundred times the speed of light.

Did any of the WEG books mention the "minimum runaway distance"? What I mean is the distance the ship covers in real space during acceleration before dimension shift.

Not a single one i have read, ever mentioned a darn thing about any actual distance covered, during the Run-Up to entering hyperspace.. Guess the game didn't feel that was a needed thing.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Difficult to decide whether there is pseudo-motion or not.

Pros for pseudomotion:
Entering/ exiting in atmosphere without side effect of speed for the surroundings.
Passing through the shields.

Cons:
Holdo ram – proof that there is actual acceleration to the speed of light (Confirmed in the novel: How Holdo's maneuver is described in the Last Jedi Novel)
Jedha jump – as Cassian punches it, all the falling rocks are moved rapidly behind just before light lines come into view.

I remember how jumping was shown in the X-Wing game (1993). There was an actual runaway distance varying from 15 to 25 km. If ship sensors were locked on any target, you could see how the distance increased rapidly before entering hyperspace.

Anyway, if anyone wishes to experiment: X-Wing Online
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
X-Wing game (1993). There was an actual runaway distance varying from 15 to 25 km. If ship sensors were locked on any target, you could see how the distance increased rapidly before entering hyperspace.


OR how they decreased rapidly, when a ship came out of hyperspace..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've talked about hyperspace acceleration before. Video games are certainly not an accurate representation of the reality of the films in many, many ways, so I wouldn't consider them a reliable source at all.

Pseudomotion is exclusively a Timothy Zahn explanation, but it does make a lot of sense. Of course the six EU novels Zahn mentioned it in are now considered Legends, but Zahn entered Pseudomotion into Disney canon in a 2017 canon novel. The 2018 canon film novelization may be contradicting that because Disney continuity is no more consistent than EU continuity was.

However, Holdo's maneuver or the X-Wing game still isn't showing acceleration all the way to the speed of light. You couldn't see a sensor tracking distance detector change at anywhere near the speed of light. It would appear to change instantaneously. The same for the Raddus and all other ships we see enter or exit hyperspace. The short term acceleration/deceleration is far less than speed of light because the motion is visible to the human eye. Even if there is some realspace acceleration there is still a point of poof, gone into hyperspace. There still is a jump to hyperspace, with or without realspace acceleration.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in the novel the safety measures were not relativistic shielding, but proximity sensors that cut out hyperdrive is something was in the path of a jump.

The same ones that blocked jump in the above mentioned X-Wing game.

But the point is, the novel confirms that there is an acceleration in realspace. And to hit something, the point of entry must be on the other side of an object that is to be hit.

Quote:
The inside of the ship would age thousands of years and maybe even start falling apart while only a split second went by outside the ship.


I think there's a mistake here. With 99,9% c, the time slows to 4,47% for those on the ship. So basically one second of jump visible from the outside, would be like 0.0447 for Mrs Holdo.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... enough time for Holdo to grab a cup of coffee before the light show... or no?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Quote:
The inside of the ship would age thousands of years and maybe even start falling apart while only a split second went by outside the ship.


I think there's a mistake here. With 99,9% c, the time slows to 4,47% for those on the ship. So basically one second of jump visible from the outside, would be like 0.0447 for Mrs Holdo.

You're right. I had the time dilation backwards. I was recovering from migraine.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, the whole time dilatation would be useful for Anoat - Bespin issue.
Especially if Radio Drama confirms there was sublight drive travel
Just need to put those systems really, really close together by canon. Wink
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Holdo ram – proof that there is actual acceleration to the speed of light (Confirmed in the novel: How Holdo's maneuver is described in the Last Jedi Novel)

An equally plausible explanation is a mass shadow collision. It's a core part of hyperdrives that ships in hyperspace can impact with objects in realspace, causing damage to both. The hyperdrive cut-out exists to detect imminent impacts and drop the ship out of hyperspace before it occurs.

And I'm not willing to rewrite the perfectly plausible current version of hyperspace just because The Last Jedi said so.


Quote:
Jedha jump – as Cassian punches it, all the falling rocks are moved rapidly behind just before light lines come into view.

If psuedomotion is the appearance of motion where there actually is none, said motion will be indistinguishable from actual motion.

Quote:
I remember how jumping was shown in the X-Wing game (1993). There was an actual runaway distance varying from 15 to 25 km. If ship sensors were locked on any target, you could see how the distance increased rapidly before entering hyperspace.

Anyway, if anyone wishes to experiment: X-Wing Online
garhkal wrote:
OR how they decreased rapidly, when a ship came out of hyperspace..

I have no problem poaching things from X-Wing; they got a lot of things right, AFAIAC. But again, video games are not, as a rule, the best source for canon. Certainly not when doing so would require rewriting a perfectly good interpretation of hyperspace that already has an established EU presence.

Now, if someone were to come up with a rule requiring that the ship make a Piloting roll to come to the appropriate jump heading, I'd say there's a lot more evidence for that.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

An equally plausible explanation is a mass shadow collision. It's a core part of hyperdrives that ships in hyperspace can impact with objects in realspace, causing damage to both.

Not exactly. RAW:
"Contact with an object’s hyperspace shadow results in the instant destruction of the ship. (The object in realspace remains undisturbed.)"
Quote:
But again, video games are not, as a rule, the best source for canon. Certainly not when doing so would require rewriting a perfectly good interpretation of hyperspace that already has an established EU presence.

True. I just mentioned it as a reference to the movies, as they set the "world rules" for all EU and rpg.
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Last edited by Darklighter79 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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