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Ewoks (primitive characters)
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Ewoks (primitive characters) Reply with quote

I labeled this thread for Ewoks, but really the thread is about any species that is not educated to the galactic standard.

Should a GM limit the choices a player makes when creating an Ewok? I mean, if you want to play an Ewok, shouldn't the player play an Ewok? What I mean by that, is that an Ewok doesn't know how to pilot a spacecraft.

I'm sure an Ewok could be taught to fire a blaster and do things like fire gun turrets using the Gunnery skill.

But, skills like Command, Starship Shields, Astrogation, Streetwise, Technology, and so on---shouldn't these skills be limited somehow? Or have some penalty applied to them?

I know there are technology levels in the planet generation system. Are there any notes anywhere about barbaric cultures operating off their homeworld?

Now, I guess the player and GM could come up with some story about how the Ewok was taken aboard a trader's vessel when the Ewok was but a cub and now has grown up living on the trader's ship.

But, that's not your standard Ewok, is it? That's a miracle Ewok--an anomaly (and I have no problem at all with a player playing a hero Ewok like that). What I'm talking about here is a standard Ewok, right off the reservation. It doesn't make sense to me that an under-educated Ewok could use any skill as well as a normal player character.

Comments?





EDIT: Maybe Ewoks should be strictly NPCs in normal games?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I labeled this thread for Ewoks, but really the thread is about any species that is not educated to the galactic standard.

Should a GM limit the choices a player makes when creating an Ewok? I mean, if you want to play an Ewok, shouldn't the player play an Ewok? What I mean by that, is that an Ewok doesn't know how to pilot a spacecraft.

I'm sure an Ewok could be taught to fire a blaster and do things like fire gun turrets using the Gunnery skill.

But, skills like Command, Starship Shields, Astrogation, Streetwise, Technology, and so on---shouldn't these skills be limited somehow? Or have some penalty applied to them?

I know there are technology levels in the planet generation system. Are there any notes anywhere about barbaric cultures operating off their homeworld?

Now, I guess the player and GM could come up with some story about how the Ewok was taken aboard a trader's vessel when the Ewok was but a cub and now has grown up living on the trader's ship.

But, that's not your standard Ewok, is it? That's a miracle Ewok--an anomaly (and I have no problem at all with a player playing a hero Ewok like that). What I'm talking about here is a standard Ewok, right off the reservation. It doesn't make sense to me that an under-educated Ewok could use any skill as well as a normal player character.

Comments?





EDIT: Maybe Ewoks should be strictly NPCs in normal games?



They do come from a "stone age" like technolgy, but they seems to be quite smart and quick minded, seems in rotj the little furball figured out how to pilot a speeder.

If we look at the Jawa, they are familiar with tech, but here too I would assume the command and other issues.

That being said, with the canon (silly but ok) introduction of the therapy ewok, an I even think I have seen ewok tech template.

I wold however, possibly for all the primitive tech races have a higher cost to learn certain tech and mech skills.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I wold however, possibly for all the primitive tech races have a higher cost to learn certain tech and mech skills.


That's interesting. Like what? It costs 2D to increase a skill by 1D the first time, then it's normal cost after that?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I labeled this thread for Ewoks, but really the thread is about any species that is not educated to the galactic standard.

Should a GM limit the choices a player makes when creating an Ewok? I mean, if you want to play an Ewok, shouldn't the player play an Ewok? What I mean by that, is that an Ewok doesn't know how to pilot a spacecraft.

I'm sure an Ewok could be taught to fire a blaster and do things like fire gun turrets using the Gunnery skill.

But, skills like Command, Starship Shields, Astrogation, Streetwise, Technology, and so on---shouldn't these skills be limited somehow? Or have some penalty applied to them?

I know there are technology levels in the planet generation system. Are there any notes anywhere about barbaric cultures operating off their homeworld?

Now, I guess the player and GM could come up with some story about how the Ewok was taken aboard a trader's vessel when the Ewok was but a cub and now has grown up living on the trader's ship.

But, that's not your standard Ewok, is it? That's a miracle Ewok--an anomaly (and I have no problem at all with a player playing a hero Ewok like that). What I'm talking about here is a standard Ewok, right off the reservation. It doesn't make sense to me that an under-educated Ewok could use any skill as well as a normal player character.

Comments?

EDIT: Maybe Ewoks should be strictly NPCs in normal games?

I thought I would first link your own thread related to this topic...

Ewok Question: How long, would you say, that an Ewok would have to travel the modern galaxy in order for him to be as proficient as the other PCs, who have lived in the modern galaxy their entire lives?

In the next post, I've gleaned parts of a conversation about Ewoks and primitive species in the game from the Playable Species List? thread...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Primitive and Galactic Ewoks Reply with quote

I used to be opposed to Ewoks PCs on the basis that primitive characters should have less than 1D in Technical and Knowledge, and I just couldn't imagine an 18D Ewok. But the idea of a cute little character that is always being underestimated grew on me, so now I have Ewoks with the caveat that their background must have included leaving Endor for a few years to be somewhat acclimated to galactic civilization (and thus no longer truly primitive). A non-Force-sensitive Ewok's attributes will be exactly the maximums according to my stats (so there is only one possible template stat-wise for non-Force Ewoks). They still seem kind of far-fetched but Ewok PCs are more for comedy.

MrNexx wrote:
My solution is a bit different than Whills. Ewoks can have any attributes in their range, but the Primitive trait limits what they can default to... no matter how Technical your ewok, he can't default to Technical for Droid repair until he's spent some time out in the world. Someone else, part of galactic society, can default to it, because they have exposure to it (through everything from Saturday morning cartoons to school to practical experience), but the Ewok can't. He CAN default to things like First Aid and Primitive Construction.

I don't have hard and fast rules on when defaulting becomes available, but it's often easier to just spend some CP to learn it.

The only difference with my rule is that I don't run PCs during the primitive-to-galactic-acclimation phase. My system has Ewok PCs start out after everything is defaulted to the attribute, like any other character. If your system works for you, then great. I would be concerned about game balance when the character is still primitive and during the acclimation. Maybe I am overly concerned. But with my way, I don't have to worry about it. NPCs in my game can still of course be primitive, and I have a system for that...
    0D Attributes:
    Ewoks are a primitive sapient species, and as such most NPCs will have attribute values of 0D, 0D+1 or 0D+2 for Knowledge, Mechanical and Technical. An attribute value of 0D means the character cannot have or use any skills of that attribute. An attribute value of 0D+1 means that the character may have select skills at 1D or higher but do not normally have access to non-listed skills of these attributes. An attribute value of 0D+2 mean that the character may have select skills at 1D or higher and may occasionally perform simple tasks of non-listed skills of these attributes, the circumstances of which as determined by the GM. Characters with 1D or higher in these three attributes are not completely primitive and have some level of familiarity with the galaxy at large.
And even using the other attributes that have 1D or higher, primitive NPCs might still have a learning curve with using unfamiliar technologies, but I don't need a codified system for that since primitive characters are only NPCs. In my game all PCs have exactly 18D in attributes with no less than 2D in any attribute (partially an anti-min/maxing feature). 2D is also the max value for Ewok Knowledge Technical in my game. That's already a big stretch as it is, but that is where my primitive species and PC stat ranges meet in the middle. And in my game 2D+1 is the average human attribute value so 2D is slightly under human average.

MrNexx wrote:
My problem with the 0D designation is the things for which they won't have 0D... Sure, they won't have Droid Repair, but they're perfectly capable of First Aid. They won't have much in the way of Alien Species or Streetwise, but there's no reason they can't have dice in Cultures, Language, Intimidation, and Survival... even topics of Scholar and Planetary Systems.

If it works for you, fine, but the attributes are fairly broad, as are a lot of the skills.

OK MrNexx, but you're basing that on incomplete information...

Ewoks
Attribute Dice: 7D

Average___ . Min/Max_
DEX: 2D ...... 1D/4D
KNO: 0D+1 . 0D+1/2D
MEC: 0D+2 . 0D+1/3D
PER: 2D ...... 1D/3D+2
STR: 2D ...... 1D/3D+1
TEC: 0D ...... 0D/2D

Technical is really the only thing I would give most Ewok NPCs a flat 0D in. In my game Primitive Construction is a Mechanical skill that Ewoks use to build and repair primitive treehouse villages, mechanical devices, forest traps, and personal weapons. In my game, First Aid is a Knowledge skill. Ewoks on Endor would not need Technical for anything in my game.

Remember, 0D+1 allows characters to have skills and use those skills. 0D+2 allows characters to have skills and also default in some situations, like when Paploo jumped on the speeder bike. At some time before that, Paploo may have observed speeder bikes in use so had enough familiarity to take off and accomplish what he did, probably using some CPs along the way. Intimidation is a Perception skill in my game.

Sentient NPCs that might have 0D attributes (like children and primitives) appear so very rarely in my game that all this almost never comes into play. But it's there just in case.

garhkal wrote:
Plus unless you allow players to make UP their own templates, or use the flat out "ewok" template from the 2e base book (i can't remember if 2e revised had an ewok template) that low of an attribute spread, might not LET ewoks take any other template out there.

If you add up my maximum attribute values up there, you'll see that is 18D exactly. That IS my non-Force-sensitive Ewok template. The only way to have different values than that would be to be Force-sensitive which would take 1D or more from attributes so a player would have a little lower attribute values when creating a template (except for in Knowledge and Technical because all PCs in my game have a minimum attribute of 2D, so Ewok PCs are already at their min and max for those two attributes).

garhkal wrote:
So the max values of the min-max list IS a template??

In the case of Ewoks in my game, yes. Remember the attribute ranges apply to the species as a whole so that includes NPCs, and most of them will not have 18D in attributes. For any species that can be PCs, the upper end of the attribute ranges has to at least be 18D because in my game all PCs have exactly 18D. Before I allowed Ewok PCs, my species attribute maximums didn't even add up to 18D (I think they were about 15D). But after I warmed to the idea of allowing Ewoks to be PCs, I had to raise some of my maximums with the caveat that any 'primitive' species PC must have some minimal acclimation to galactic civilization in their background. Ewok PCs are some of the most abled Ewoks in the galaxy!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I labeled this thread for Ewoks, but really the thread is about any species that is not educated to the galactic standard.

Should a GM limit the choices a player makes when creating an Ewok? I mean, if you want to play an Ewok, shouldn't the player play an Ewok?


If the GM's setting the game prior to ROTJ< how many people in the galaxy would even know where endor is, let alone it had sentient furballs on?? IMO few if any, ergo there's little to no chance for 'stray ships to land there, for an ewok' to have snuck aboard and gotten taken off planet with..
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
I wold however, possibly for all the primitive tech races have a higher cost to learn certain tech and mech skills.


That's interesting. Like what? It costs 2D to increase a skill by 1D the first time, then it's normal cost after that?



something like this.

I was more leaning to x2 cost , then later on either negating the penalty, or turning it into a permanent +1 cp cost for the skill.

Ytou thought here of double cost on creation is cool, not what I was thinking, but I think maybe better
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I thought I would first link your own thread related to this topic...


There was no need to go through all that work. I fully remember that other thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If the GM's setting the game prior to ROTJ< how many people in the galaxy would even know where endor is, let alone it had sentient furballs on??


That's exactly another point I wanted to make.

In order to play an Ewok, the Player has to come up with some special background in order to have the character function without restriction.

Note that the 1E Ewok template describes an Ewok stowaway on a Rebel ship that comes to Endor.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I labeled this thread for Ewoks, but really the thread is about any species that is not educated to the galactic standard.

Should a GM limit the choices a player makes when creating an Ewok? I mean, if you want to play an Ewok, shouldn't the player play an Ewok?


If the GM's setting the game prior to ROTJ< how many people in the galaxy would even know where endor is, let alone it had sentient furballs on?? IMO few if any, ergo there's little to no chance for 'stray ships to land there, for an ewok' to have snuck aboard and gotten taken off planet with..


And, if we're talking post-ROTJ, how long before you start having Ewoks who were raised in contact with the Galaxy?

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.de/2017/09/new-republic-ewoks.html

I still think that, with primitive species, it works best to designate certain skills off-limits for defaulting, perhaps until a certain number of CPs have been spent to improve skills off that list... so, your Ewok can't default to Mechanical or Technical skills on the list until they've spent 10 CPs to improve skills on the list (representing that they've gained some basic knowledge of galactic technology and can now generalize).
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it all comes down to more than exposure.
is the species evolved to be able to fathom the complexities of "modern" tech?

We can with a certain degree say that the average stone age man was no less intelligent than today's man, and thus his tech level and understanding of such is exposure and that alone.

if we go further back and look at the more primitive humans,before neanderthal and modern man, and we start adding fur and ape like features, we see the capability to craft and use basic and surprisingly advanced stone tools, however we recon from the evidence we have interpreted that they most likely had a lower intelligence compared to modern man.
How this would influence their understanding of modern technology is unknown, but they would most likely struggle more than modern man.


Now if we look here and there among the primitive races, we see some are "locked" at a stone aged level, the Dantari of Dantooine stands out to me as the cave dweller link before the neanderthal.
They I think are given a max 1D to all technological skills, and penalties to all rolls with anything above stone age level.

Other primitive species and I think even some human templates ( not sure on the human but think of the tough native)
have the -XD penalty to technonlogical skills, for all attributes, until the GM deems them assimilated.

so I think some species could be by evolution unable to grasp technology compared to a human.

However some may also be very tech intuitive as it to me looked like the ewoks are.

And I think there could be argued that there could exist a combination.

A species, that could maybe fit with the ewoks, are not able to grasp teechnology at the same level as a human, but they are naturally curious and intuitive and thus they can get some bonus under certain situations, like if they see "how and where" the scout trooper uses the controls, they can mimic it and thus use the speeder, that he did not appear to control very well.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Whill wrote:
I thought I would first link your own thread related to this topic...

There was no need to go through all that work. I fully remember that other thread.

There wasn't any work done in linking to the first post of your other thread. The work was in pulling a linear conversation out of my thread.

And besides, this thread isn't just for you. It's for everyone participating in it, those active users who read it and aren't participating, and for the silent majority of lurkers reading it. This website gets 300-500 unique non-bot visitors per day.

MrNexx wrote:
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.de/2017/09/new-republic-ewoks.html

Thanks for sharing this. I haven't really worried about Ewoks years after RotJ because I have no interest in gaming in that era at this time. But I agree with the general premise that Ewoks can eventually become more familiar with galactic society.

MrNexx wrote:
I still think that, with primitive species, it works best to designate certain skills off-limits for defaulting, perhaps until a certain number of CPs have been spent to improve skills off that list... so, your Ewok can't default to Mechanical or Technical skills on the list until they've spent 10 CPs to improve skills on the list (representing that they've gained some basic knowledge of galactic technology and can now generalize).

As detailed in my previous post above this one, I don't think the RAW game system adequately deals with Ewoks and primitive characters, and I don't think having a bunch of skill limitations works best. I also don't feel that PCs starting play primitive and having to buy into attribute defaulting is particularly balanced.

So after moving a couple skills around I have a system that addresses NPC primitiveness. Kno, Mec and Tec having attributes of 0D, 0D+1, or 0D+2, and those each mean different things with respect to skills in addition to those being the starting points for raised skills. Non primitive NPCs will have at least 1D in these attributes.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
In order to play an Ewok, the Player has to come up with some special background in order to have the character function without restriction.

That's the route I go. It's just easier and more balanced. I require primitive species PCs to incorporate into their background a period of galactic acclimation (for Ewoks about 3 years away from Endor) to justify their 2D in Kno and Tec (and in my game average human attribute is 2D+1, so Ewok PCs are still below human average in these areas). In my game Ewok PCs can just use the normal rules for skill defaults without limitations, although in the classic period it will be rare for even an acclimated Ewok will have very many Kno and Tec skills raised above 2D.

Here is the template for my son's Ewok who left Endor and joined a tramp freighter crew in 2 BBY (3 years before the start of the campaign):

DEX 4D
KNO 2D
MEC 3D
PER 3D
STR 3D
TEC 2D
FOR 1D
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

In order to play an Ewok, the Player has to come up with some special background in order to have the character function without restriction.


But how 'special is it' if every ewok character in a way pre ROTJ time frame, has the exact "was a stowaway" story??
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
In order to play an Ewok, the Player has to come up with some special background in order to have the character function without restriction.

But how 'special is it' if every ewok character in a way pre ROTJ time frame, has the exact "was a stowaway" story??

It would be rare for a GM to have more than one Ewok PC, but if so, what GM would have them have the same stowaway story? "A special background" doesn't mean they would all have the same special background.

My current SWU has a mere two Ewoks leaving Endor before RotJ (actually both before ANH). Tell me if you think this is unrealistic explanation for them.

Several years earlier, the first one an Ewok tribe chieftain who was abducted along with a Yuzzum and a Dulok by an Imperial Survey Corps scientist to study the indigenous sentient lifeforms on the Forest Moon of Endor, a possible place being considered to complete construction of the first Death Star (Later, Scarif ended up being chosen over Endor). Not long after stopping at an Imperial planet, the Yuzzum and Ewok escaped from the scientist, a fact he covered up to avoid getting in trouble. (He faked his data and submitted his report that they did not survive the testing with his conclusion that they would pose no threat to the Empire.) The Yuzzum and Ewok went separate ways when they escaped.

The Yuzzum befriended an old tramp freighter captain and joined his crew for a couple years, but got homesick so asked to be taken back to Endor. When they figured out how to get back went to drop him off, the freighter crew were captured by Sanyassan Marauders who had also captured part of an Ewok party. The son of the Ewok chieftain (who had watched his father get abducted a couple years earlier) met up with the rest of the Ewoks from that party who told him about the capture of their friends and the chieften's son and the other Ewoks mounted a rescue attempt on the Sanyassan Marauder's castle. They got captured too and in the castle's dungeon they met with the other Ewoks, the offworlders and the Yuzzum, who recounted the tale of his and the chieftain's escape from the Imperial scientist. After they all escape the Marauders, the Ewok Chieftain's son decides to leave the Forest Moon with the tramp freighter captain (taking the Yuzzum's place in the crew) to have a chance to travel around the galaxy in hopes of finding a lead to his father's whereabouts.

Neither Ewok that left was a stowaway. One was abducted, and a couple years later the other left to look for the first one when he got the opportunity.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Ewoks Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Several years earlier, the first one an Ewok tribe chieftain who was abducted along with a Yuzzum and a Dulok by an Imperial Survey Corps scientist to study the indigenous sentient lifeforms on the Forest Moon of Endor, a possible place being considered to complete construction of the first Death Star (Later, Scarif ended up being chosen over Endor).


Was Scarif the system where the DS was built? I thought it only an Imperial Database collection point. The DS was built by the Geonosians, I thought.

In the canon book, Tarkin, it was built in orbit of Geonosis.
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