The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

How to handle high dice pools?
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters -> How to handle high dice pools?
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Purzelkater
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:19 am    Post subject: How to handle high dice pools? Reply with quote

How are you handle high dice pools for skills on your games? Dice pools for skills can increase boundless but the difficult levels are always limited. Also ranged weapon damage are fixed.
Now on my group I have a technican rolling 30+ like nothing, just has to check the wild die. Yes, it's an 1D strength wimp without fighting skills but he don't need this. Because their is also a fighter sucking 5D Blaster Rifle fire at breakfast. And the pilot... Well, you know where it's going.

So I have technical unlimited dice pools vs. fixed difficult levels. Most times I just want a wild die check, because all others are negligible by now. And I don't like the idea to make 30+ as a minimum for technical rolls but a 12 on perception is good.


For comparison Shadowrun also has a D6 dice pool system, but counts successes (only 5 and 6 are a success). So with higer dice pools you can have more successes, but without 5 or 6 you can also fail with a pool of 20 dice. On SWD6 - if you don't fail the wild die - you can't be lower than 20 (21 if the wild die needed to be 2 at least). Also with 10 dices (a default value for the trained skills on my group) it's no problem to count very difficult levels.

Is there a dice pool limit what I have read over? Or is the system unbalanced beyond a certain level?

Kind regards
from Purzelkater
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11658
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try expanding the limits...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2413

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always felt that the purpose of the Character Point system was to create an opportunity cost. A character gets good at something at the expense of something else.

In other words, you mentioned that it is meaningless that the character has 1D in strength.

What a character lacks should never be meaningless. The character should, at some point, come upon a situation that his technical know-how can't solve, and he must roll some other skills to hopefully scrape by.

But don't go crazy with this: I had a pilot once who crash landed very early in the campaign and spent 7 or 8 adventures marooned on a poor planet without access to a starship, so all my primary skills were useless. Ended up having to raise blaster and dodge and some even melee combat to swing a stone axe that I took off an enemy's corpse when I got low on ammo to make it out of there. That was, IMO, a bit extreme, but it was also a campaign where all the players were veteran RPers and we were good sports about things not going our way A LOT.

Anyway, make him sweat one or two out of every 10 adventures.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pel
Captain
Captain


Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 726
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the expanded difficulty chart! I've also found it fun to toss in a variety of situations requiring obscure skills (beast riding!) not only to keep the players guessing, but to spread the CPs around a bit. I'd never endanger a PC just to invoke some oft-ignored skill, but I'm not above introducing complications if the roll total or Wild Die allow.

The feedback I've received is mostly positive and encourages the players to think of their characters as complete beings in a complex universe.

Great example with the stone axe, btw. It's a huge galaxy and one never knows what might pop up.
_________________
Aha!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11984
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How to handle high dice pools? Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
How are you handle high dice pools for skills on your games? Dice pools for skills can increase boundless but the difficult levels are always limited. Also ranged weapon damage are fixed.
Now on my group I have a technican rolling 30+ like nothing, just has to check the wild die. Yes, it's an 1D strength wimp without fighting skills but he don't need this. Because their is also a fighter sucking 5D Blaster Rifle fire at breakfast. And the pilot... Well, you know where it's going.

So I have technical unlimited dice pools vs. fixed difficult levels. Most times I just want a wild die check, because all others are negligible by now. And I don't like the idea to make 30+ as a minimum for technical rolls but a 12 on perception is good.


Just because you have ONE fighter type with a 5d Str, does not mean the pilot/techie, are immune to issues in combat. UNLESS you are running things where HE is the only one getting shot at/hit on...

As for how to resolve it.. How's about rather than rolling vs static numbers, start having enemies make opposed rolls..
He needs to fix X, have an enemy who did the "Sabotage", who rolled HIS XYZ repair skill, to break it.
He needs to hack into computer system Blah, have the base/facility have their own computer geeks counter hack him..

Lastly, what race is that techie, where he only has a 1d strength??

Purzelkater wrote:
Also with 10 dices (a default value for the trained skills on my group) it's no problem to count very difficult levels.


How long have they been playing/what CP have you been handing out, to where 10d is a 'Default" pc skill level???
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 5135
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How to handle high dice pools? Reply with quote

Good perspectives in this thread.

Purzelkater wrote:
How are you handle high dice pools for skills on your games? Dice pools for skills can increase boundless but the difficult levels are always limited. Also ranged weapon damage are fixed.
Now on my group I have a technican rolling 30+ like nothing, just has to check the wild die. Yes, it's an 1D strength wimp without fighting skills but he don't need this. Because their is also a fighter sucking 5D Blaster Rifle fire at breakfast. And the pilot... Well, you know where it's going.

So I have technical unlimited dice pools vs. fixed difficult levels. Most times I just want a wild die check, because all others are negligible by now. And I don't like the idea to make 30+ as a minimum for technical rolls but a 12 on perception is good.

For comparison Shadowrun also has a D6 dice pool system, but counts successes (only 5 and 6 are a success). So with higer dice pools you can have more successes, but without 5 or 6 you can also fail with a pool of 20 dice. On SWD6 - if you don't fail the wild die - you can't be lower than 20 (21 if the wild die needed to be 2 at least). Also with 10 dices (a default value for the trained skills on my group) it's no problem to count very difficult levels.

Is there a dice pool limit what I have read over? Or is the system unbalanced beyond a certain level?

Kind regards
from Purzelkater

To riff off of what has already been said, high level PCs should start to become more well rounded because there will always be situations where they are a bit out of their element. What happens when the star pilot gets incapacitated in a blaster fight? What happens when your medical guy gets incapacitated and someone else gets wounded? What happens when the party gets split up? High level PCs who are overspecialized should have problems sometimes. If not, you are being too easy on them. There is no way that 1D Strength PC ever would have survived too long in my game.

I don't think I have ever had ran PC with skills over 8D. After improving a couple signature skills to 8D, my players wisely move on to raise other skills.

garhkal wrote:
How long have they been playing/what CP have you been handing out, to where 10d is a 'Default" pc skill level???

Indeed. Purzelkater, it sounds to me like you should end this campaign and start a new one to replace it. You can give your PCs one final epic adventure where you try to come up with difficult challenges to save the galaxy.

In your next campaign, my suggestion would be to start out the PCs a little above RAW's starting PC level, and then be a more stingy with CPs so advancement is slower. You'll find it a lot easier to challenge the PCs for longer before the "bucket of dice" level.

And this time, don't let any players munchkin their PCs. I don't allow any PCs to have less than 2D in any attribute. You may want to consider implementing that.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Purzelkater
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first thank you for all the replys. Because of the question, we are playing SW D6 2 years now with a total of 280 CP now. I have to say, it's the first time playing SW D6 (or D6 at all). Mostly we have played Shadowrun all the years, so it's a new experience for us and as the GM I still have some issues - as you can see here. Wink

The expanded limits are a nice approach, but I don't know how this can reflect the "real world". What I mean, I can't say all problems our tech has to slove are at "super legendary hero difficult level", just because HE has to slove them - even if it's just a bad motivator. And all other "poblems" are between moderate and difficult to match the other dice pools.

Most skills of our chars are between 3D and 5D. Also our Padawan survivor has a 7D on her lightsaber specialization as her highest skill. Just the TECH skills of our mechanic and the piloting skill of our pilot are above 10D. For this reason I don't know how I should handle this (if I should handle this a special way). We have a average world with average people how can do average (on Star Wars heroe measures) things but only flying or repair broken equipment are the hell to deal with (if I would raise the difficult levels here) - and because every pilot in this world would have to fly like a hero or this galaxy would be filled with starship scrap.
(hope my translation makes sense here)

So at the moment there are 2, maybe 3, chars with one skill breaking the levels. But how will it come in 2 or 4 years? As I said, we are playing SW D6 just 2 years now, but how about groups playing much longer with the same chars? How they handle this?

Also I don't say the char with 1D strength is meaningless. They all (and he too) knows about his capabilities and they also know he is no fighter (so they have to shield him on a fight). They know, they need him to break the security for open the door and they shield him so he can open the door. This works fine. But there is no challenge to broke the security and open the door itself (even the broken hyperdrive is no challenge on this values).
So the last time the ship accidentally was in the middle of a starship combat they where rammed by a starfighter (also with the heroic pilot roll) and the mechanic could'nt repair the hyperdrive because the lack of spare parts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11984
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

280cp awarded over 2 yrs of gaming? How long do you game for, and how often?

Assuming a 5-6 hr session twice a month, that's 48 games played. 6cp given almost, per session. Seems high to me.

That said, On the skills they have at 10d, sure, don't up the diff if there's no one there, but have enemies coordinate actions to stall/styme them. 8 techies who are sitting in the imperial center the PC's are trying to hack into, who have only say 6-7d each, when coordinated, gain +3d to that. So this makes 9d to 10d. ADD +16 modifier (for knowing the system in and out) and they can be a great foil tot he party.

Additionally, how quickly were they training those skills up???
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 5135
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
we are playing SW D6 2 years now with a total of 280 CP now.

If that is 24 months, that's about 11.6 per month. How often do you play? That doesn't seem like a lot of you do epic all-day sessions a couple times per month or play every week, but otherwise it seems like a bit much.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Purzelkater
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we are playing every 2 weeks for 8 hours on average. Because the lack of experience on D6 I'm using a CP calculation table I have found. The average CP I give are 14-17 CP per "mission" (or say adventure), sometimes 20-22 CP for the more epic things.
As said on another thread, my players are... well... very "penny-pinching" on spending their CP on play. If not realy necessary, the collect their CP only to raise the skills (okay, this is changing a little bit the last times, because of more challenging adventures).

btw: I like the idea of coordinate actions for the enemies to challenge my players. A nice and elegant way. I had missed this option.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11984
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many 'game sessions' per mission for that 14-17CP??
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2420

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If you want to beat the Red Baron, don't get into a plane"
I also from time to time had problems with overly specialized PC:s
The simple solution is to have random stuff direct them, just like in real life, into situations where they are pitted against other tasks than their specialisations. At 1D Str, a drunken Tramp Freighter would beat up the Techie, as long as he/she isn't accompanied by the PC thug. Etc, etc.
It hasn't have to be set up 'unfairly', just that you can not always predict what's gonna happen where..
It should teach the PC:s to make more all rounded characters.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2413

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


Assuming a 5-6 hr session twice a month, that's 48 games played. 6cp given almost, per session. Seems high to me.



Laughing

5-6 CP per gaming session feels right about on the money to me. 10 or 15 for a climactic "chapter-ending" session involving the defeat of a lesser BBEG (such as Jabba or Boba Fett)... I'd tend to give out 20 or so for an adventure wherein a major villain is defeated such as Dooku, Grievous or Darth Maul, or for blowing up the Death Star or the like.

Once Vader or Palpatine is defeated, no CPs need be awarded. Game over. Those PCs now become NPCs in a future campaign (which I may or may not allow the original players to "play" those NPCs during their cameos).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Captain
Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing a specialized character is a choice. You are choosing to be exceptional in one area at the cost of being decent in all areas. It is a choice I've made as a player and sometimes the ramifications are quite enjoyable. Everyone tends to remember the failures, those become the stories we tell.

The advantage of being an exceptional technical skilled person is that enemies are more likely to capture you than kill you. Everyone needs a doctor, a starship mechanic, etc. When something is broken it needs to be fixed and if you have the reputation for being the best fixer around, people will seek you out.

That can make a good storyline, the villains are trying to kidnap your tech, so they deliberately separate the party to get your tech alone.

I recommend not increasing the difficulty of tasks just because they've become trivial to your players. If a player is rolling 10D then they've earned their skill and things that were difficult back when they were only 4D in the skill should be trivial now. What I do is give them one particularly challenging encounter with that skill set per adventure. So a slicer would go up against a team of slicers that are prepared for him, or he'd have to try to hack the Imperial database on Coruscant, or some such. Give them a challenge commensurate to their skill level.

Another way to challenge them is to give them multiple targets in one round. Multiple action penalties will quickly even out a fight. If your player has 10D in Blaster, send 5 troopers to attack just him. Or with a tech, have multiple systems break at once so he has to make multiple rolls at the same time. The advantage to this is that they really begin to feel like a hero when they face down five troopers and survive, or they manage to keep a ship together that they know should have been lost. If they're anything like the players I play and GM with, they will remember their characters when they were starting out couldn't pull off feats like that and will be proud of their progress.

Remember the chart on page 207 of second edition revised and expanded under the heading Assigning Skills and Special Abilities. It's a list of Die codes and how good that skill should make you relative to the people around you. 4D is professional level. 8D is one of the best on a planet. Only 1 person in 100 million get to 8D in a skill. 12D means you're one of the best in the entire galaxy.

Take a look at the Movie Trilogy sourcebook. Han Solo has the best blaster ability in the game, 10D with his Heavy Blaster Specialization. Darth Vader has the highest lightsaber skill 11D+2. No one in the movies has a higher combat skill than Darth Vader, and that's reflected in the stats. Obi Wan is only 11D in lightsaber.

I hope that gives you some perspective. Good luck with your game!


Last edited by Kytross on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11984
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:

Another way to challenge them is to give them multiple targets in one round. Multiple action penalties will quickly even out a fight. If your player has 10D in Blaster, send 5 troopers to attack just him. Or with a tech, have multiple systems break at once so he has to make multiple rolls at the same time. The advantage to this is that they really begin to feel like a hero when they face down five troopers and survive, or they manage to keep a ship together that they know should have been lost. If they're anything like the players I play and GM with, they will remember their characters when they were starting out couldn't pull off feats like that and will be proud of their progress.


Another way to get that challenge, is to make them under a Time crunch, so they have to rush the action (so halve their dice pools), WHILE being under other issues...
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0