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Rule of Two, and why it makes no sense.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Rule of Two, and why it makes no sense. Reply with quote

I will argue that the "rule of two" as we think of it can not logically exist.

Now there can only be a master and and an apprentice at any time, but is this logical?

I have disregarded the "lost tribe of the sith" in this, focusing more on the jedi vs sith conflict as we see it.

We know that there are artifats out there that can litteraly turn people to the dark side, the mask of lord momin is one such thing, and i would argue the murr talisman is in the same realm.

Now knowing that there are dark side nexuses, shrines and the like out there, nothing logically prevents any force sensitive in finding these studying these, adopting the sith teachings and taking an apprentice, thus becomming a master with an apprentice regardless of the existance of Palpatine and Vader, or any other.

Now just becuse the title was never used, i would argue that when savage opress found his brother maul and became his apprentice there was in fact two master's and two apprentices in the galaxy at the same time, and those were the only ones known.

In both canon(new) and legends comics and books we have holocrons out there, rebels showed us no less than two, jacosta nu hid the jedi archives more or less in a cave, and we know there are sith artifacts out there.

I think the rule of two is meant so that there will be no organized sith order, and that any sith out there will be in a Master and Apprentice relation, even if this allows for more than one sith lord at the time.

I also think the rule is meant for the sith masters when plural is to stay appart, maybe even make efforts to do so, in order to not be found by the jedi and to be able to play behind the scenes to further sith influence.

I think personally Palpatine never adhered to this rue, and was more in the "one sith" line.


So guys do any of you think the rule of two makes sense, or actually existed in the way we think?
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Pel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rule of Two is pretty much shredded now. I think it maybe started out that way to keep a low profile after the Sith were nearly eradicated, but in true sneaky Sith fashion, they violated the rule after a while and let the Jedi believe it was still in effect.

Granted a lot of our proof is apochryphal now, but it wouldn't be the first or last time the Sith fed their Jedi cousins disinformation.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point.
Disinformation......never thought of that.


I was thinking, lets say under palpatine.
we had him and vader being the sith.
hOwever my point is even if they did (try) to hold to the rule of two
there would be no logical reason why no other force sensitive out there should not adopt the sith philosophy if exposed to a holocron or something similar

So I can see Palpy and vader big the lord of the sith and the apprentisce, and I can see force sensitive mr x to study teachings and become the lord of the sith and tk an apprentice.........now for TWO sith lords and two apprentices....

Etc etc etc....I see no reason to why not 20, 100, 25 000 so to speak meaning as long as there are artifacts and force nexuses and the like out there then there will be darksiders....I doubt it is simply "impossible" for them to call them selves sith and follow the tachings, take a apprentice and thus be the second, third, fourth sith lord in the galaxy at the same time.

I can not in any way my self see the rule of two as even possible given the amount of force "stuff" in the galaxy and how some artifacts ac even posess people etc
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, what is a 'Sith' to you?

You can be a dark side force user without being a sith, just as you can be a light side force user and not be a jedi.

I always thought of the Sith as a very specific cult, analogous to witchcraft in the dark ages.

If that particular cult was almost wiped out they might have tried to keep to just pairs. Like small cells, not even knowing about others...or thinking that others aren't 'True' Sith.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Also, what is a 'Sith' to you?

You can be a dark side force user without being a sith, just as you can be a light side force user and not be a jedi.

I always thought of the Sith as a very specific cult, analogous to witchcraft in the dark ages.

If that particular cult was almost wiped out they might have tried to keep to just pairs. Like small cells, not even knowing about others...or thinking that others aren't 'True' Sith.


Exactly!

I am thinking in the cult terms my self.

To me a sith one that dark or light follows the tennants of the sith teachings, maybe more so than the tennants and teachng of any particular sith lord
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget the example of the Inquisitorus. Sidious and Vader were the only two Sith of the Galactic Empire, but they weren't above turning Old Republic Jedi and/or recruiting Darksiders to their cause. Sidious and Vader both knew well enough to not train the Inquisitors in Sith teachings for fear that the Inquisitors would usurp the the two of them. Hell, when Ahsoka Tano took on both Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister, she curbstomped both of them at once. In hindsight, this shouldn't be a surprise since she was a formally trained Jedi Knight when she left the Jedi Order and had way more training as well as real combat experience from the Clone Wars.

There's far more to being a Sith than just being a darksider in the employ of the Emperor.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
The Rule of Two is pretty much shredded now. I think it maybe started out that way to keep a low profile after the Sith were nearly eradicated, but in true sneaky Sith fashion, they violated the rule after a while and let the Jedi believe it was still in effect.

Granted a lot of our proof is apochryphal now, but it wouldn't be the first or last time the Sith fed their Jedi cousins disinformation.

My thoughts exactly. Only the Jedi explicitly referred to the Rule of Two in the films. That could just be what they think. And the Sith having a rule doesn't mean they can't be their evil selves and sneak around violating the rule.

In Legends, Plagueis was the Sith Master until he died during The Phantom Menace, so Palpatine didn't become the Master until then and Maul just thought Palpatine was the Master so Maul thought he was a Sith Lord, when officially he wasn't a Sith Lord. But he was still a Sith apprentice. In my SWU, Palpatine's sect of Sith had two official Sith Lords at any given time, a Master Lord and an Apprentice Lord. However both Sith Lords have their own Sith apprentices who are not officially Lords but they certainly would like to be. Each Lord could have multiple apprentices. Some may not know about each other, and some may. Some apprentices may be secrets to the other Sith Lord, and some may think they are secret but the other really knows about them. Some apprentices may be working for one Lord and secretly working for the other. But the ideal of Darth Bane is still there in the respect that the apprentices are not given too much power to not become a threat to the Lord(s). In the Empire, Palpatine and Vader both have apprentices.

The Bane/Palpatine Sith sect aren't the only Sith out there because they may not have all died off as believed and/or there may be offshoots, but none of them have any Lords as powerful as Palpatine (or probably Vader). These other Sith may be considered threats to Palpatine and/or they may be manipulated by Palpatine into serving his purposes in some way. However for Star Wars to have the most meaning possible for me, the Jedi Anakin Skywalker returned and destroyed the Sith as prophesied, so these other minor Sith cults had to die off by RotJ. That's what RPG campaigns are for.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Also, what is a 'Sith' to you?

You can be a dark side force user without being a sith, just as you can be a light side force user and not be a jedi...

Exactly. You could have dark siders who just say they are Sith like Asajj Ventress first did, and you can still have dark siders who don't even claim any affiliation with the Sith. These still exist even beyond RotJ in my SWU.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then, there's cults like the Krath - who arguably are Sith, as they've been trained by a Sith (well, ghost Sith - 30% less DSPs), and who together with Exar Kun ended up founding the Brotherhood of the Sith.

Or even the Sorcerers of Tund, who started out as Sith sorcerers but ended up being a legged snail in a costume.

I think there's a case for it being that as the race Sith got watered out, you would arguably be a Sith if you said you were a Sith, and you followed the Qotsisajak to the best of your ability.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, I tend to interpret it as simply "All Masters have one apprentice. Not two, not zero. Three is right out."

How do you become a Master? You free yourself from your Master, and take an apprentice. Freeing MIGHT involve killing your master. It might involve your master saying "You're free, I have no more to teach you." Or it might involve some machinations on either of your parts. But, once you are a master, you should find an apprentice. And, if you find a new apprentice who is more worthy... well, get rid of your old apprentice.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sith Master: "The Rule of Fi-"

Sith Apprentice: "Two, sir!"

Sith Master: "-Two!"
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Or even the Sorcerers of Tund, who started out as Sith sorcerers but ended up being a legged snail in a costume.

Actually, the snail in a costume wiped out the Sorcerers of Tund after learning their secrets.

For a second there, I had somewhat forgotten the name of Rokur Gepta's species, but I did remember that it rhymed with Snoke...
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Pel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

For a second there, I had somewhat forgotten the name of Rokur Gepta's species, but I did remember that it rhymed with Snoke...


There you have it: Snoke the Croke was actually in illusory disguise and isn't actually dead, just playing along to see where little Kylo's antics lead him before popping out and yelling 'Surprise!' *roll credits*

Hey, I've seen WAY more tenuous connections hold up. This is the internet, after all.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was really not a rule, it's a guideline.

The idea the way George Lucas described it, is that there can't be more than two (for long) because of darksiders being into ambitious backstabbing.

The apprentices might decide they're due for a promotion and gang up on their master and kill him, so they can each move up a rung. Or one of the apprentices will do well enough to attract the jealousy of the other apprentice leading to a fatal confrontation or act of sabotage. The master, for his own reasons (such as preemptively avoiding scenario # 1) may intentionally play his students off of each other, eliminating one of them.
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