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Starship piloting
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Starship piloting Reply with quote

Why did they separate Space transports and Starfighter Piloting?

They are the same scale.
In the movies they basicly do the same thing.

Or am I over simplifying things?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Starship piloting Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
Why did they separate Space transports and Starfighter Piloting?

They are the same scale.
In the movies they basicly do the same thing.

Or am I over simplifying things?

Well, in RAW space transports can be both starfighter and capital ship scale (for the big ones). No, you aren't oversimplifying things. It was a movement in 2e to make things more nuanced than 1e. In my game I personally do think capital ship operation should be separated (I made it an advanced skill), but I recombined starfighter-scale space transports and starfighter piloting into one skill. I've combined several 2e skills...

Agility – "Dodge" & "Running"
Melee – "Melee Combat" & "Melee Parry"
Throwing – "Grenade" & "Thrown Weapons"
Bureaucracy/Law – "Bureaucracy" & "Law Enforcement"
Value/Business – "Business" & "Value
Com-scan – "Communications" & "Sensors"
Heavy Weapons – "Blaster Artillery" & "Vehicle Weapons"
Powersuit/Pack Operation – "Powersuit Operation", "Jet Pack Operation" & "Rocket Pack Operation"
Spaceship Gunnery – "Starship Gunnery" & "Capital Ship Gunnery"
Spaceship Operation – "Space Transports" & "Starfighter Piloting"
Hiding/Stealth – "Hide" & "Sneak"
Armor/Powersuit/Pack Repair – "Powersuit Repair", "Jet Pack Repair" & "Rocket Pack Repair."
Computers/Droids – "Computer Programming/Repair", "Droid Programming" and "Droid Repair"
Spaceship Repair – "Capital Ship", "Space Transports" & "Starfighter Repair", all modern spaceships
Space Weapon Repair – "Starship & Capital Ship Weapon Repair"

I've also broadened the scope of some of these combo skills and some of the other skills. (For example, Beast Riding is now a general animal empathy/handling/riding skill.) I've never felt I've oversimplified anything. It works for a simulation of cinematic reality. For your game, you should do whatever works for you.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:32 am    Post subject: Re: Starship piloting Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
Why did they separate Space transports and Starfighter Piloting?

They are the same scale.
In the movies they basicly do the same thing.

Or am I over simplifying things?


IMO its the difference between someone able to drive a SUV, and a motorcycle.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Starship piloting Reply with quote

Savar wrote:


Or am I over simplifying things?


Not really. In Space D6 they have the following:

Quote:
Piloting: Flying air- or space-borne craft, from hovercraft and
in-atmosphere lighters to transports and battleships.


and

Quote:
Vehicle operation: Operating non-flying vehicles traveling on
or through the ground or a liquid medium.

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am inclined to make them all starship piloting

if we look to earth, an air force B-1 bilot is by star wars piloting a "starfighter scale bomber" so it is a starfigher pd raw.

this pilot will aso with no issue be able to get in the cockpit of an airbus and fly it just as well, this will be a much larger and slower craft, and would be rated a tranport.

If we then scale this up the 747s and above we are on the brink of what could be capital ships, and again the siad pilot from the airforce would be covered.

hir piloting skill will, there would naturally be some procedures and stuff he needs to learn, but in the operation of the craft he is covered
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But would he be as skillful if he jumpped into say a F16, or a Cessna?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember, 2e has skill specializations so that is what differentiates from different kinds of vehicles in these broad skills. Real life isn't the cinematic reality of Star Wars, but if you must compare, then at least consider that most people would have a lot of specializations and not many base skills.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But would he be as skillful if he jumpped into say a F16, or a Cessna?

Things don't appear to work that way in the SWU, else Luke wouldn't be able to jump from a Skyhopper into a front-line starfighter and get two kills on his first mission. Obviously, he's something of an exception what with his last name being Skywalker, but it didn't appear to matter enough to make a fuss about it to the officers at Yavin Base.

As to the OP, I have no problem combining Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports into a single skill called Starship Piloting, especially since I long ago changed Starfighter-Scale to Starship-Scale on my Scale Chart.
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that might be worth importing from GURPS is the idea of default skills. If you have a similar skill to the one required to use an object, you can use that one with a mild penalty in place of the standard. Say; you can fly a YT-1300 with starfighter piloting but at a -1D or -2D penalty.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not an unreasonable idea. Another option is to have "skill synergy" where some skills can boost other skill rolls in a small way if applicable to the situation.

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
But would he be as skillful if he jumpped into say a F16, or a Cessna?

Things don't appear to work that way in the SWU, else Luke wouldn't be able to jump from a Skyhopper into a front-line starfighter and get two kills on his first mission. Obviously, he's something of an exception what with his last name being Skywalker, but it didn't appear to matter enough to make a fuss about it to the officers at Yavin Base.

If we must put Luke into game terms, Luke could have been tons of CPs too. However as I always say, the purpose of the game system is to simulate adventures of original characters that could take place in the same universe as the film. There is really no need to retro-engineer film characters and events into game terms. So ultimately, what your character can and can't do within the skill system doesn't have to exactly match Luke or anyone else in the films.

CRMcNeill wrote:
As to the OP, I have no problem combining Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports into a single skill called Starship Piloting, especially since I long ago changed Starfighter-Scale to Starship-Scale on my Scale Chart.

I generalize same skill with the name Spaceship Operation to include interplanetary ships with no hyperdrive, but I use your scale system and have no issue with calling it starship-scale, or simply 6D.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you list SW piloting skills, there are quite lot of them: archaic, hover, aquatic, ground, sailed, undersea, jet pack, powersuit, starfighter, swoop, repulsor, walker, capital ect.

But, much like beast riding, it's ok to put in just for one skill for simplicity. If MG wants some diversity, a "Generic Difficulty Modifiers" table from D6 Space is a good option (page 61), Its bonus/penalty can represent how alien and unfamiliar is a ship/vehicle to character race/background/knowledge.

Call of Cthulhu uses similar rule: piloting each class of craft requires different skill: Pilot Civil Prop, Pilot Civil Jet, Pilot Airliner, Pilot Jet Fighter, Pilot Helicopter. But driving cars is under one skill (up to light truck): whether its manual, automatic, electric, ect.

PS. Alien, meanwhile, has only one skill: pilot - "Be it a dropship, a starfreighter or a battle frigate, you’re the one to fly it". Interesting..Wink
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I generalize same skill with the name Spaceship Operation to include interplanetary ships with no hyperdrive...

i understand your reasoning, but for me, "starship" just sounds more appropriate to the setting than "spaceship". YMMV.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Alien, meanwhile, has only one skill: pilot - "Be it a dropship, a starfreighter or a battle frigate, you’re the one to fly it". Interesting..Wink

I feel this is more appropriate for games that do not have Mechanical attribute.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My delineation would be on crew size. "Starship Piloting" is for vehicles that can be flown by a single person, even at a penalty. If everyone else is unconscious, a single person can fly a YT-1300. A single person can fly a Y-Wing. Once you start needing trained Command skills to coordinate all your pilots, it stops being a matter of "Bob flies the ship" and more "Bob monitors the leftmost engine"... it's not a Piloting skill, but a ship operations skill.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I generalize same skill with the name Spaceship Operation to include interplanetary ships with no hyperdrive...

i understand your reasoning, but for me, "starship" just sounds more appropriate to the setting than "spaceship".

I feel starship only sounds more appropriate for the setting because it has "Star" in the name and most spaceships shown in the films have hyperdrives and thus qualify as starships. It couldn't really be called Star Wars if it all took place in one star system. But in-universe, spaceships without hyperdrives would be a lot more common in the galaxy than what we see in the films. Most galactic citizens would never leave their home star system.

In the films, escape pods and TIE fighters are never referred to as starships (or starfighters). All starships are spaceships, but not all spaceships are starships. The presence of a hyperdrive on a spaceship has nothing to do with the skill used to fly the ship at sublight speeds through normal space. There is a different skill for navigating through hyperspace to other star systems, Astrogation. And one of the two RAW skills I combined has "space" in its name. Most all space transports we see in the films would technically be "star transports" but they are still called space transports.

MrNexx wrote:
My delineation would be on crew size. "Starship Piloting" is for vehicles that can be flown by a single person, even at a penalty. If everyone else is unconscious, a single person can fly a YT-1300. A single person can fly a Y-Wing. Once you start needing trained Command skills to coordinate all your pilots, it stops being a matter of "Bob flies the ship" and more "Bob monitors the leftmost engine"... it's not a Piloting skill, but a ship operations skill.

What about Ground Vehicle Operation, Hover Vehicle Operation, Jet Pack Operation, Powersuit Operation, Repulsorlift Operation, Rocket Pack Operation, Swoop Operation, and Walker Operation? Did you rename all those as Piloting skills since they usually can be operated by one person?

The skill used to fly Space Transports at (what RAW calls) starfighter-scale, flies ships in both of your categories. Out of the words "piloting" and "operation", operation sounds a little more general to me.
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