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Describe your Hybrid 1E Rules
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Describe your Hybrid 1E Rules Reply with quote

As has been discussed recently, 2E and 2R&E made several improvements over the original 1E rules. And yet, 1E still has its charms, primarily because of the simplicity.

So, if you were to go back to gaming in 1E, what rules from 2E and 2R&E (or house rule derivatives thereof) would you bring with you?

For me, just off the top of my head, I'd use 2R&E Initiative, and my own Scale System.

Discuss.
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Odea Ionstrike
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ran the Introductory Adventure Game last night and I have to say I’m tempted to just use those rules as my base for any new campaigns (but I’d probably swap in 2R&E’s initiative myself. Also I’d be inclined to use the scale dice cap rules from the Rules Companion...)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I'm considering is giving characters a Speed Code of 3D, and coming up with a unified Movement/Pursuit system that applies to both characters and vehicles.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:14 am    Post subject: Re: Describe your Hybrid 1E Rules Reply with quote

CRMcNeill, I'm really happy to see you diving into 1e. Some of your stuff is a little on the crunchy side for me, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what simplified stuff you come up with.

CRMcNeill wrote:
As has been discussed recently, 2E and 2R&E made several improvements over the original 1E rules.
...
So, if you were to go back to gaming in 1E, what rules from 2E and 2R&E (or house rule derivatives thereof) would you bring with you?

This seems directed at those who have played 2e and then choose to go back to 1e. I just wanted to point out that a lot of 1e gamers have never tried 2e. Many have come to the game after all editions/sub-editions have existed, given them cursory looks, and then have gone with 1e out of intimidation because 2e looks more complicated. I've recently been reminded that 1e isn't actually simpler in all ways, and I feel bad that some of those that choose 1e without trying 2e are missing out of certain aspects of the game they could port back to 1e, as your OP suggests. My base system was each sub-edition in the order they were released (except IAG which I didn't get until much later and have only played a couple times). My experience is that, as someone who has played all three versions of 1e and both version of 2e thoroughly, I am more of an anomaly among gamers playing the game now.

Quote:
For me, just off the top of my head, I'd use 2R&E Initiative, and my own Scale System.

And by 2eR&E Initiative, I presume you mean the entire combat round? The combat round is significantly different in every iteration (including each sub-edition). It's not just a simple, Initiative: Yes or No. All three 1e combat rounds do not have Initiative, but the differences between the combat rounds are notable.

CRMcNeill wrote:
And yet, 1E still has its charms, primarily because of the simplicity.

IAG takes from both editions, and it is even is even simpler than both in some ways, so I feel IAG should be a part of the conversation.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Discuss.

My game is primarily based on R&E but has some inspirations from 1e. For example, my skill set is smaller than R&E with broader skills, inspired by 1e and IAG. I have maintained advanced skills and specialties because it allows for more nuance which I feel is important for broader skills. I doubt too many 1e players would want to port advanced and specialty skills to 1e, but that is an option.

I would at least suggest reading the skills chapter in R&E and seeing if there are any normal 2e skills they may want to their 1e game.

I have 1e skill points and 2e character points in my game. One very simple upgrade players of 1e could make is to add the primary additional use for CPs to skill points, being able to burn them in play for a one-time boost of 1D each.

A 2e concept I would recommend porting to 1e is the wild die. It's cinematic!

I strongly recommend that initiative and some version of the R&E combat round be ported to 1e (or perhaps the IAG version). Combat is probably the biggest flaw of 1e. I mean, we made do with it at the time only because we didn't know any better at the time. I didn't house rule combat rounds as I was working my way through each pre-R&E sub-edition, and I never really felt satisfied with it until R&E, where it achieved near-perfection. (I imagine that both 2e movement/chase rulesets would probably be something no one would want to port to 1e, where movement is functional as-is and a lot simpler.)

I also strongly recommend that some version of the 2e species rules be ported into 1e. A lot is lost without alien special abilities, and the species attribute ranges make alien character make a lot more sense. A more simplified version could be to just take the typical attributes stats and just make the max end of the range 2D above that. But even with that attribute simplification, some species abilities that go beyond skills and attributes are just lost in 1e without special abilities.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Whill. I think the most useful thing about 1E is the significantly slimmer skill list. I might even check out IAG for a really slim list.

I'd probably go with a similar way of doing the Force as well. I've grown tired over the years of treating force users like mages and giving them spell lists. I feel like the Force should be more fluid than limited to a certain number of powers.

Overall, I think I prefer the difficulty scales from R&E, Combat Round, Damage/Wounds, Advanced Skills from R&E. I like doing a mix of combined action from 2E and R&E. I might switch back to 1E speed codes, just because it gives a little more cinematic feel to chases instead of being a straight number comparison, rolling off speed codes in a chase could be fun and add some more tension in chases.

I have some other thoughts, but I just saw the time and I should get ready for work. Perhaps a little more later.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Describe your Hybrid 1E Rules Reply with quote

Quote:
My experience is that, as someone who has played all three versions of 1e and both version of 2e thoroughly, I am more of an anomaly among gamers playing the game now.

My experience is somewhat similar. I started playing 1E in the late '80's, and then my gaming group switched up to 2E when it came out and never really went back. At the time, I wasn't hugely experienced in the nuance of how a more detailed, complicated system wasn't automatically better.

However, I do see the need for a happy medium that eases the workload on the GM and doesn't get in the way of the story. The 1E Range Concept I'm working on is a major component of that. I've forgotten a lot of the specifics on character/vehicle movement, too, so I'll be taking some time to grok that.

Quote:
And by 2eR&E Initiative, I presume you mean the entire combat round?

Yes. It's not perfect, but it's superior to the 1E system. The big change I'm considering at the moment would be to have a single ranked order of Initiative, running highest to lowest regardless of side, with alternating between sides only occurring in the even of ties.

Quote:
IAG takes from both editions, and it is even is even simpler than both in some ways, so I feel IAG should be a part of the conversation.

I'm already planning on incorporating the IAG Sensor rules into updated 1E stats, so I'm open to suggestions. And I don't mind casting a wide net, either; there are some rules from D6 Space I wouldn't mind including either, like Strength Damage or something along the lines of the Advantage/Disadvantage System.

Quote:
I have maintained advanced skills and specialties because it allows for more nuance which I feel is important for broader skills. I doubt too many 1e players would want to port advanced and specialty skills to 1e, but that is an option.

This is my feeling, as well. Keeping them allows for more options than is possible under the 1E Skill list. Of course, that also dovetails with our other discussions about the need for more clarity on skill titles.

Quote:
I have 1e skill points and 2e character points in my game. One very simple upgrade players of 1e could make is to add the primary additional use for CPs to skill points, being able to burn them in play for a one-time boost of 1D each.

So, are SPs and CPs two separate values, one used to improve skills, the other for single-instance 1D boosts? I rather like that idea, just want to clarify.

Quote:
the wild die.

Definitely.

Quote:
I imagine that both 2e movement/chase rulesets would probably be something no one would want to port to 1e, where movement is functional as-is and a lot simpler.

There are aspects of 2E/R&E that I'd like to incorporate there, but I'd definitely want it based on Speed Codes rather than Move/Space values. IMO, introducing actual meters into vehicle speeds and weapon ranges was a mistake. "Two meters wide" is forgivable, but easily translates into "hit a Character-Scale target from a Starfighter with a 6D Scale modifier", whereas having Orbit start at 50 kilometers has been a conceptual headache.

Quote:
I also strongly recommend that some version of the 2e species rules be ported into 1e.
The Classic Heroes supplement has 1E compatible Boons and Flaws, so that might be a place to start with a simpler version of the D6 Space Ad/Dis system, which could serve as an umbrella for a more general Species Special Abilities.

I think I'd like to port over the Force Attribute concept, as well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odea Ionstrike wrote:
I just ran the Introductory Adventure Game last night and I have to say I’m tempted to just use those rules as my base for any new campaigns (but I’d probably swap in 2R&E’s initiative myself. Also I’d be inclined to use the scale dice cap rules from the Rules Companion...)

Dice caps aren't a bad system per se, but I tend to shy away from them because I prefer a system with as few unique rules as possible. While the 2R&E Scale system wasn't perfect, a system that applies dice bonuses / penalties as needed was more in line with the rest of the system as a whole.

And while I'm not entirely comfortable blowing my own horn, I'd like to think I have greatly improved on the concept.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dice caps aren't a bad system per se, but I tend to shy away from them because I prefer a system with as few unique rules as possible. While the 2R&E Scale system wasn't perfect, a system that applies dice bonuses / penalties as needed was more in line with the rest of the system as a whole.

And while I'm not entirely comfortable blowing my own horn, I'd like to think I have greatly improved on the concept.

Oh yeah, some scale system is a must because 1e is way over-simplistic there. Way back I was interested in taking my game back to die caps system more streamlined than blue Vader 2e, but that would take a lot of work restatting everything. In the end, your scale system is better than R&Es and you've already done the work of restatting everything, so I just went with that.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
I have 1e skill points and 2e character points in my game. One very simple upgrade players of 1e could make is to add the primary additional use for CPs to skill points, being able to burn them in play for a one-time boost of 1D each.

So, are SPs and CPs two separate values, one used to improve skills, the other for single-instance 1D boosts? I rather like that idea, just want to clarify.

Close. SPs improve skills. CPs can improve skills, move, and boost rolls. They each work exactly like they do in their respective RAWs. The only difference needed is how they are awarded. SPs are awarded as the base experience reward for adventures, and CPs are given as bonus points for good roleplaying, etc.

This does addresses those odd players that refuse to ever improve their PC's skills and only use them to boost rolls in play. I remember someone here saying they had a player like that for a long campaign, and eventually his character fell far behind the other PCs skill-wise. In my game, players can only burn CPs in play. SPs are good for improving skills or nothing, so this makes certain that no PCs will fall too far behind the others (unless the player is absent from a lot of adventures). The CPs awarded for an adventure are never more than the SPs.

Instead of having both points, for 1e GMs I was just suggesting the option of making SPs into CPs, and thus allow them to be used to burn during play in addition to improving skills. This would go along with adopting the wild die into 1e, because each 1D from a CP is an additional wild die.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In the end, your scale system is better than R&Es and you've already done the work of restatting everything, so I just went with that.
Thanks. If I can get the Movement and Range rules hammered out the way I like, I'll most likely be doing updated 1E Stats, too, mostly just pared down versions of the 2E restats, but with some house rules incorporated that I've always thought would be a better fit for 1E. In particular, I'm thinking I'll completely do away with hard numbers on ship weaponry and give them all Battery Dice by Fire Arcs instead. Individual weapon stats on ships would look something like this:
    Turbolaser Batteries
    Fire Arcs: 5D Front, 5D Left, 5D Right, 3D Rear
    Range: {placeholder}
    Fire Control: 4D
    Damage: 5D


Quote:
Close. SPs improve skills. CPs can improve skills, move, and boost rolls.

Very cool. I've long wanted a way to reward Jedi PCs for being judicious in the use of Force powers by rewarding good role-playing, and this sounds like the perfect fit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I usually give the CPs at the end of the adventures with the SPs, but for exceptionally good roleplays or ideas, I will occasionally award the CP at the end of a chapter or immediately in play. Skills can still only be improved in between adventures, but sometimes that CP is needed to make a creative idea work.

I really do like to reward players playing Jedi well because I've had a handful of players that were horrible at playing Jedi characters. Jedi already have the extra stick from me being strict about morality and DSPs (with the PC immediately and irrevocably becoming an NPC if they cross over to the Dark Side). CPs for roleplaying them well are more carrot.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would keep the speed code system, bring in wild die and die caps from 2E, and the wounded twice from 2R&E along with an expanded base skill selection.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all very interesting to me, thank you all very much. Still reading through IAG and think its a solid step forward from 1e without adding baggage.

Though I do miss things I have seen in other "homebrews" like HyperspaceD6 or Jez Gordon's Rules Essentials so I am trying to figure out where they came from and learned a lot here already. From what I see I would definitely want to port alien abilities, as fasr as I can tell they shouldn't be too hard to move to 1e/IAG.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like the idea of using Speed Dice and unspecified range bands for Ship to Ship combat. Compare speed dice, if you win, you gain on your target, if you lose, they get a little further away. I might have to do a little more digging in the 1st Ed book to see what else I'd keep from there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I actually like the idea of using Speed Dice and unspecified range bands for Ship to Ship combat. Compare speed dice, if you win, you gain on your target, if you lose, they get a little further away. I might have to do a little more digging in the 1st Ed book to see what else I'd keep from there.


That's fairly similar to how they run chases and escapes in the Doctor Who RPG. It at least makes for some fun and interesting chases. If the person gets three units farther away (units being an undesignated distance, but just relative space measured by how many dice rolls they win), they get away. It might be a fun, less crunchy way of dealing with space units.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like it would also help in the theater of the mind rather than flat number crunching.

Here's a question for those who have Skill points and Character points, would you allow someone to spend character points on their speed code roll in a chase?
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